C-USA Championship Game clip request

[Osric Pureheart]

I've been told of a really seriously bizarre play in the C-USA CG that'd be a great one to clip.  4th quarter, UCF punts, it hits the ground, a Team A player touches the ball at some point, they all relax as it bounces around, then a Team B player grabs the ball and returns it for a touchdown.  Play ended at 5:06 in the 4th.

[TXMike]

I am processing the video right now    Should be up in a bit.


Oh my..the B is signalling to stop the clock!!
And the L already has the new ball to be put in play.

http://youtu.be/BToL1W4D4Tc

[TXMike]

Did anyone see if there was a flag down for the illegal bat?

[CenTexTM]

The only option here is to replay the down, right? 

[Diablo]

The only option here is to replay the down, right?

Wow, what a situation.

B can take the ball at the spot of the illegal touching.

And the L already has the new ball to be put in play.

The L is getting B's ball for the Try.     

[TXMike]

Or A could be penalized frm prev spot for illeg bat and replay the down

[Diablo]

Or A could be penalized frm prev spot for illeg bat and replay the down

Was the illegal batting foul called, i.e. flag on the ground & R announcement?

[CenTexTM]

Is the spot of illegal touching an option because of Rule 12?  Does the back judge's S3 count as otherwise signaling the ball dead?  If so, since this occurred before the ball was in player possession and thus during the kick, would the spot of illegal touching be an option if replay is unavailable?  To me, it seems like the IW provisions in Rule 4 would control and you have to replay the down with any penalties enforced.  Where am I going wrong?

[JasonTX]

The L is lucky he didn't trip the runner with the ball he tosses behind his back.  What a mess.  Illegal touch or enforce batting at previous spot.  The B has to own up to that.  The L obviously thought the ball was dead with the signal.

[Diablo]

Is the spot of illegal touching an option because of Rule 12? Does the back judge's S3 count as otherwise signaling the ball dead?  If so, since this occurred before the ball was in player possession and thus during the kick, would the spot of illegal touching be an option if replay is unavailable?  To me, it seems like the IW provisions in Rule 4 would control and you have to replay the down with any penalties enforced.  Where am I going wrong?

No
Check out 4-1-2-c:  If a foul or violation occurs during any of the above downs, the penalty or violation privilege shall be administered as in any other play situation if not in conflict with other rules (A.R. 4-1-2-I and II).

[CenTexTM]

OK, gotcha... Nothing to do with Rule 12, it's the violation provision that's being enforced, so either enforce the violation and take the ball at the spot of illegal touching, or if there's an accepted penalty that privilege is canceled and you replay the down with the penalty enforced.  The BJ's signal does cause the ball to become dead, so if there's no accepted penalty does Team B have the *option* of taking at the spot of illegal touching, or are they required to?  I know Rule 6-3-2 says they have the privilege of taking it at the illegal touching spot.  If the IW provisions are more favorable are they allowed to replay the down?  The illegal touching spot is obviously more favorable than the "dead ball" spot here, but since the IW intervened do they have an option?

[TxJim]

I dont understand why this was not reviewed under 12-3-3c.

[InsideTheStripes]

Did Tulsa #11 come from OOB to make the block that sealed the edge?  How about #30 who can be seen putting his mouthpiece back in?

[TXMike]

11 was out on the gunner at the snap so he is okay.

UCF Coach and CUSA have spoken on the play:

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-12-01/sports/os-ucf-tulsa-conference-usa-championship-game-stor-20121201_1_jordan-rae-ucf-coach-george-o-leary-kemal-ishmael

The contest turned on two key moments.

The most glaring was Tulsa junior Trey Watts' 54-yard punt return for a touchdown with 5:06 remaining in the game. It tied the score.

UCF punted into the wind from its own 10-yard line, and when Jamie Boyle's kick bounced backward in the air, senior Kemal Ishmael leaped and batted the ball toward midfield. As Brendan Kelly slowly approached the ball to down it, Watts swooped in to pick it up. Watts raced down the left sideline for a touchdown.

There was confusion among UCF players about whether the play was whistled dead and also if Tulsa players came from the sideline onto the field of play, but the return stood and the score was tied.

"The other kids coming down there were in pretty good coverage lanes, they said they heard a whistle," UCF coach George O'Leary said of the Knights. "Whatever. They should have still played the ball. And that kid made a good play and congratulations to him."

In a statement, C-USA coordinator of officials Gerald Austin said there was no visual evidence that players entered the field from the sideline and "there was not a whistle blown during the runback. In the replay you can see the whistle of the back judge swaying back and forth."

[justaLJ]

Agree with the notion that by rule, it should have been Tulsa ball at the ILT spot, or in absence of ILB foul being called, the down replayed from previous spot.

Interesting contrast compared to how the Texas/KSU inadvertent signal situation was handled.

[Diablo]

OK, gotcha... Nothing to do with Rule 12, it's the violation provision that's being enforced, so either enforce the violation and take the ball at the spot of illegal touching, or if there's an accepted penalty that privilege is canceled and you replay the down with the penalty enforced.  The BJ's signal does cause the ball to become dead, so if there's no accepted penalty does Team B have the *option* of taking at the spot of illegal touching, or are they required to?  I know Rule 6-3-2 says they have the privilege of taking it at the illegal touching spot.  If the IW provisions are more favorable are they allowed to replay the down?  The illegal touching spot is obviously more favorable than the "dead ball" spot here, but since the IW intervened do they have an option?

In the absence of involvement of Replay, anytime a foul and/or violation occurs in the same down as an inadvertent whistle or signal (except for C-USA apparently), put the IW on hold and process the foul or violation first.  If there was only a foul, go to the offended team and ask if they want to take the ball after penalty enforcement.  If only a violation, ask the offended team if they want to take the ball at the spot of illegal touching.  If there was both a foul and violation, the offended can take either penalty enforcement or spot of illegal touching.  If the offended team takes either penalty enforcement or spot of the violation, the IW is forgotten. 

However, if the offended team declines penalty enforcement or the consequence of the violation, the IW options kick in. 

[Diablo]

I dont understand why this was not reviewed under 12-3-3c.

Agree.  But I think Replay should have used 12-3-3-d-2.  The TD would be voided and Tulsa would put the ball in play at their 44, spot of recovery. 

[CenTexTM]

In a statement, C-USA coordinator of officials Gerald Austin said there was no visual evidence that players entered the field from the sideline and "there was not a whistle blown during the runback. In the replay you can see the whistle of the back judge swaying back and forth."

Does it seem odd the coordinator of officials would refute the notion that the BJ blew an inadvertent whistle by commenting on the position of the whistle while ignoring the movement of his arms?  This strikes me as disingenuous, hoping that people will not notice or remember that a signal carries the same impact as an audible whistle.

[TXMike]

As if the only person who COULD have blown a whistle was the B.   Hopefully what this article printed was not the complete statement for the coordinator.   To the coach's credit, he does not seem to be making a big deal out of this whole thing.

[TXMike]

This is just getting "better and better".  This from a UCF announcer who apparently has received a statement from C-USA. 

http://thebeatofsports.com/the-return-that-perhaps-never-should-have-been/

[centexsports]

My money on the party at fault is the Back Judge.   This is a fairly common mistake that I have seen multiple times.   The Back Judge sees the ball touched by the kicking team with no R attempting to pick up the ball and he blows the whistle (in this case, he signaled to stop the clock by waving his arms).   

The BJ should have gone straight to the Referee and come clean.   Then the options can be officiated.   

BTW: It is obvious other officails saw the BJ waving his arms otherwise the wingman would not have had a ball in his hand.   I don't know why they didn't speak up as well. 

[CenTexTM]

Is there a reason (either rule or mechanics) why the B would signal to kill the clock but not whistle?  If the ball comes to rest and neither team attempts to secure it he'd be justified in calling it dead, but even if that's the case why would he use one means and not the other?

[Chester]

Just so I'm clear, in NCAA, does a signal, right or wrong, always kill the play?

[TXMike]

Depends on the signal and apparently depends on the crew and perhaps the conference.

[BankerRef]

Just so I'm clear, in NCAA, does a signal, right or wrong, always kill the play?

The answer is yes, any dead ball signal has the same result as a whistle under NCAA.  4-1-2-a

The touchdown signal in the KState situation is a good example of the correct application.