Author Topic: Misapplication of Rules Costs Team Win  (Read 25171 times)

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Offline TxSkyBolt

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Offline FLAHL

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Re: Misapplication of Rules Costs Team Win
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2016, 11:17:20 AM »
Unfortunate for all concerned.  I bet the entire crew feels bad in ways that we can't even imagine.

Offline ncwingman

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Re: Misapplication of Rules Costs Team Win
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2016, 11:25:02 AM »
That is very unfortunate, especially after the OK State / Central Michigan game earlier this year that ended the same, incorrect, way.

Offline The Roamin' Umpire

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Re: Misapplication of Rules Costs Team Win
« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2016, 12:29:36 PM »
Quote
The apology did not resonate with Keller, who wrote on Twitter: "Your sincerest apologies mean nothing, my boys WORKED for 5 months just to have everything we worked for taken away."

Hey, coach, I get that you're HACKED, and rightly so. However, a few tips:
  • Don't you guys usually say "Leave no doubt?" If you hadn't left it for the last play, it's not a problem. For that matter, stop a TD *and* two-point conversion and I'm sure you would have been just fine with the apology. What you worked for couldn't have been taken away if you hadn't allowed it.
  • Don't commit a foul on the last play of the game and this situation doesn't come up.
  • If you're *going* to commit the foul on the last play, then know the rules and your rights under the rules. I'm willing to bet you did not ask for a coach-referee conference to discuss misapplication of a rule because you didn't know it either. Yes, knowing the rules is our job. It's also yours.
  • Hopefully, once you've calmed down a bit, you'll recognize that there were classier, more graceful responses you could have made.

Offline Curious

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Re: Misapplication of Rules Costs Team Win
« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2016, 03:08:14 PM »
Don't get me wrong...I'm not making any excuse for this screw-up; but:

Wouldn't be nice if the coaches actually knew the rule (AB would)...or have someone on the sideline who they could call on?

Additionally, rule 3-3-5c allows for the coach to request a coach-referee conference prior to the Referee signalling the game is over - or in this case, before the next snap for the untimed down (3-5-11).  If there were ANY doubt in ANYONE'S mind about the call, wouldn't this be the opportune time?

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Misapplication of Rules Costs Team Win
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2016, 03:36:05 PM »
If I'm following this article correctly, Mr. Keller is the teenage QB, who threw the ball away rather than take a possible hit and run the clock out, securing his team's win.  So the "woe is me tweet" is from a frustrated teenager who made a huge mistake, and sounds like the clock isn't all he was trying to deflect.

But, he's a frustrated and disappointed kid,  the jerk who wrote the article, however, is more likely an adult, who knew full well that the tweet content added nothing material to the reporting of what happened, but apparently felt it necessary to highlight the OBVIOUS frustration the QB, and likely the entire team felt about being so close, but short, even if it meant casting the teenage QB in a unflattering and whiny light.

AFOpie

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Re: Misapplication of Rules Costs Team Win
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2016, 10:28:01 PM »
Crew got taken off Championship game.... and now this game is going to court.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/highschool/ct-spt-1122-prep-fb-fenwick-follow-20161121-story.html

Offline bawags06

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Re: Misapplication of Rules Costs Team Win
« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2016, 08:30:08 AM »
If the Cook County Court decides to take action, I believe that we will all be directly affected in the years to come. You can now sue over a mistake made in game and the courts will "make it right?" Good lord.


Offline SouthGARef

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Re: Misapplication of Rules Costs Team Win
« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2016, 09:41:16 AM »
We'll have to hope that this judge shows the same restraint that others have shown in recognizing the terrible slippery slope that would come if we allowed the court system to intercede in sporting events.

I'm sure the crew is disappointed in themselves. I made a rule error earlier this year and even without it being in the media or directly impacting the outcome of the game it eats at me. Can only imagine what these guys are feeling.

Offline FLAHL

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Re: Misapplication of Rules Costs Team Win
« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2016, 10:14:05 AM »

Additionally, rule 3-3-5c allows for the coach to request a coach-referee conference prior to the Referee signalling the game is over - or in this case, before the next snap for the untimed down (3-5-11).  If there were ANY doubt in ANYONE'S mind about the call, wouldn't this be the opportune time?


I've never had this happen in a game that I worked.  I understand some states require the crew to have the rulebook handy if this happens.  In FL, we don't have that requirement, so I can imagine this scenario:

The crew conferences and decides incorrectly to award an untimed down.
The coach says "No, that's not right.  There's no untimed down after Intentional Grounding."
The crew, having already decided that there IS an untimed down, says "Sorry Coach, you're incorrect."

Anyone been down this road?

Offline Curious

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Re: Misapplication of Rules Costs Team Win
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2016, 10:24:04 AM »
I too hope the court case is thrown out; but I have an"ethical" question regarding what seems to be a be the trend for everybody to seek legal remedies against a "bad call".

Here's the question: Should an official volunteer, or accept if asked, to "work" for a team to ensure that they are not victims of an game official's mistake?

Follow-up #1: Would it make a difference if the official is hired (paid a game fee for instance) to do this?

Follow-up #2: Should states assign officials to act as "booth rules reviewers" - with the ability to correct enforcement mistakes - in State Tournament games?

Offline bawags06

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Re: Misapplication of Rules Costs Team Win
« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2016, 10:59:24 AM »
I too hope the court case is thrown out; but I have an"ethical" question regarding what seems to be a be the trend for everybody to seek legal remedies against a "bad call".

Here's the question: Should an official volunteer, or accept if asked, to "work" for a team to ensure that they are not victims of an game official's mistake?

Follow-up #1: Would it make a difference if the official is hired (paid a game fee for instance) to do this?

Follow-up #2: Should states assign officials to act as "booth rules reviewers" - with the ability to correct enforcement mistakes - in State Tournament games?


I don't believe it is at all ok to have such an official work only on a school-by-school basis. I would open to the idea of an off-field official tasked with rules, etc, but as an extension of the on-field crew. Independent consultants open a whole new can of worms. Maybe a retired official or a coach could do this for a school, but that's a different question. Not an active official. The "working for one school" idea creates conflicts of interest and unintentional loyalties far too quickly.

Booth rules reviewers... We are still trying to cover all of our region's varsity games with a 5-man crew. A short drive into New York, and they are working many 4-man varsity games. I can't support an extra official off the field, really, until we have can get more eyes on the field. There simply aren't enough rules interpretations/questionable enforcements in an average game---even a playoff game to justify it. Also...the obvious inconsistency with instantly available film would make reviews very difficult.

Perhaps the other idea would be opening a protest option for wronged schools. Sure, it would get really messy, but much less damaging that a high school sports governing body being sued over the outcome of a game.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2016, 11:01:06 AM by bawags06 »

Offline bossman72

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Re: Misapplication of Rules Costs Team Win
« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2016, 01:14:15 PM »
Crew got taken off Championship game.... and now this game is going to court.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/highschool/ct-spt-1122-prep-fb-fenwick-follow-20161121-story.html

People tried to do this a few years ago in Texas (?) and the judge threw it out.  Hopefully that's a precedent that they will have to follow.

Offline bawags06

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Re: Misapplication of Rules Costs Team Win
« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2016, 01:24:47 PM »
People tried to do this a few years ago in Texas (?) and the judge threw it out.  Hopefully that's a precedent that they will have to follow.

They don't have to follow it, as it was filed in Cook County Court in Illinois--basically Chicago. But, I agree with you; I hope the court will use the precedent to remove itself from this mess. Due to my day job, I tend to stay up on Illinois court decisions, and this one has me a little nervous.

Offline JasonTX

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Re: Misapplication of Rules Costs Team Win
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2016, 02:08:37 PM »
Too bad the coach didn't take the high road.  I understand the hard work and the heartbreak.  But the truth is, we all learn more through adversity than we do through prosperity.  The coach should use this as an educational opportunity on life lessons. 

Offline NoVaBJ

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Re: Misapplication of Rules Costs Team Win
« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2016, 07:43:58 PM »
Yes, the loss of down precludes a subsequent untimed down by rule. Which means that A had a free pass to commit a loss of down foul.

This is an affront to equity. The decision was as just as it was incorrect, and the rule ought to change.

Offline bama_stripes

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Re: Misapplication of Rules Costs Team Win
« Reply #16 on: November 23, 2016, 05:11:06 AM »
People tried to do this a few years ago in Texas (?) and the judge threw it out.  Hopefully that's a precedent that they will have to follow.

Unfortunately, they may have to follow this IHSA precedent:
http://abc7chicago.com/news/fenwick-attorneys-look-to-2009-case-in-effort-to-reverse-football-game-result/1621236/

ALStripes17

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Re: Misapplication of Rules Costs Team Win
« Reply #17 on: November 23, 2016, 06:09:27 AM »
Yes, the loss of down precludes a subsequent untimed down by rule. Which means that A had a free pass to commit a loss of down foul.

This is an affront to equity. The decision was as just as it was incorrect, and the rule ought to change.
A also gets a free pass to commit any live ball foul. The time still goes down during the down and the offense merely has to snap the ball on a replay if the penalty is accepted. Illegal forward passes are not a crazy exception in this situation.

This has nothing to do with equity and although I agree we make mistakes-this is inexcusable and unfortunate due to the press this same situation got earlier this season.

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Offline LAZebra

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Re: Misapplication of Rules Costs Team Win
« Reply #18 on: November 23, 2016, 08:46:06 AM »
If courts begin to rule that they have authority to change decisions made by the officials, how long before they decide they can also change decisions made by the rules committee?
None of these fans paid to see us

Offline SouthGARef

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Re: Misapplication of Rules Costs Team Win
« Reply #19 on: November 23, 2016, 09:32:01 AM »
Unfortunately, they may have to follow this IHSA precedent:
http://abc7chicago.com/news/fenwick-attorneys-look-to-2009-case-in-effort-to-reverse-football-game-result/1621236/

Big difference between the IHSA making a ruling and the Courts interceding. I get that Fenwick's attorneys will argue their point (and the IHSA deserves the mess they're in because of that 2009 ruling), but it's not a legal precedent at all.

Offline Ted T

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Re: Misapplication of Rules Costs Team Win
« Reply #20 on: November 23, 2016, 09:48:08 AM »
This is a rule that needs to be changed.  The rule as it stands allows a team to benefit from committing a foul.  I don't think any rules are intended to do that.  Based on the situation in the OK St v Cent Michigan game, I submitted a rule change request to my state association for the NFHS to consider such a change. 
The officials in this game erred by the book, but I believe that logic may have affected their thinking.  Logic would clearly dictate that a team should not gain an advantage by committing a foul.

Offline Curious

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Re: Misapplication of Rules Costs Team Win
« Reply #21 on: November 23, 2016, 10:16:24 AM »
This is a rule that needs to be changed.  The rule as it stands allows a team to benefit from committing a foul.  I don't think any rules are intended to do that.  Based on the situation in the OK St v Cent Michigan game, I submitted a rule change request to my state association for the NFHS to consider such a change. 
The officials in this game erred by the book, but I believe that logic may have affected their thinking.  Logic would clearly dictate that a team should not gain an advantage by committing a foul.

Please help me understand the "logic" of incorrectly allowing a team to have an extra play after committing a loss of down foul.  Is it possible this entire crew has been living under a rock since the CMU/OK State debacle?

As far as other committing a foul not involving a LOD on the final play of a period is concerned, unless it's a scoring play, the offended team needs only to decline the penalty to end the period/game.  If there is a scoring play during which the scoring team fouls, the score will be nullified by the acceptance of the foul; and, yes, there will be another play.  But it is a far better option than allowing the score; and there is no guarantee the offending team will score again.

Offline prab

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Re: Misapplication of Rules Costs Team Win
« Reply #22 on: November 23, 2016, 10:35:05 AM »
If courts begin to rule that they have authority to change decisions made by the officials, how long before they decide they can also change decisions made by the rules committee?

Maybe the solution is to require each officiating crew to have a real judge as a member.  That way, disputed calls could be resolved on the spot with a simple bench trial.  Of course the real judge would have to recuse himself if he was the official making the call (or no call) in dispute.  To allow for that possibility, perhaps a local magistrate could be contracted to attend each game to be on standby.

Offline SouthGARef

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Re: Misapplication of Rules Costs Team Win
« Reply #23 on: November 23, 2016, 10:40:30 AM »
This is a rule that needs to be changed.  The rule as it stands allows a team to benefit from committing a foul.  I don't think any rules are intended to do that.  Based on the situation in the OK St v Cent Michigan game, I submitted a rule change request to my state association for the NFHS to consider such a change. 
The officials in this game erred by the book, but I believe that logic may have affected their thinking.  Logic would clearly dictate that a team should not gain an advantage by committing a foul.

Rogers Redding, NCAA Rules Editor released what I thought was a very solid statement on this:

"Recently the extension of a period (Rule 3-2-3) has been a topic of active
discussion across the football landscape. My purpose here is to give the philosophy and
purpose of the rule.

One can get a hint of the philosophy by looking for the common element in
those circumstances where the period is extended. The thing they have in common is
this: in every case the down just played is repeated. Offsetting fouls, accepted penalties
(not including loss of down), and inadvertent whistle—all of these have the down
repeated. In the case of the inadvertent whistle, there are some other elements that
come into play, but repeating the down is an outcome of several possibilities.
When the down is going to be repeated, that really means that it has not yet
been resolved. Put another way, there is some unfinished business to take care of
before the period is over. And the “do-over” of that last play is what is required to wrap
up that period, to bring it to a close. So we say that we extend the period---and we do
that to take care of that unfinished business: the down that needs to be repeated.

Given that philosophy, it should be easy to see why the period is not extended
when there is an offensive foul whose penalty calls for loss of down. Remember that
“loss of down” is shorthand for “loss of the right to repeat the down.” So with regard to
extending the period, since there will be no repeat of the down, then the business of the
period has been taken care of; hence there is no reason to extend the period--it is truly
over, there is no unfinished business, and we move on to the next period. Of course, if
this takes place in the second or fourth period, the half is over.

There is one little wrinkle that needs clarifying. Suppose the clock runs out
during a down in which there is a personal foul by Team B. The penalty will be tacked
on at the basic spot and the period will be extended for Team A to run a play on first
down. At first blush it looks like the down is not being repeated. But is really is, since it
is unfinished business that needs to be taken care of, even though the number of the
down is not what it would have been. The same thing is true for a foul that doesn’t
include an automatic first down but does leave the ball beyond the line to gain. The
repeated down is first down, because of other rules that determine the number of the
down.

Finally, consider the situation that has generated so much discussion: the clock
runs out during a fourth-down play during which Team A commits a foul whose penalty
includes loss of down. The ball goes over on downs. If this happens in the first or third
period, Team B next puts the ball in play after the change of period, to either second or
fourth.

Many people push back against not extending the second or fourth period in this
case, claiming that it “deprives Team B the right to snap the ball.” But you can see that
no such right exists, given the spirit and intent of the rule for extending. That is,
extending the period is not about running another play; instead, it is about finishing up
the business of the period by extending it so that the previous down can be repeated,
and hence resolved."

Offline SouthGARef

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Re: Misapplication of Rules Costs Team Win
« Reply #24 on: November 23, 2016, 11:02:27 AM »
The request for a Temporary Restraining Order has been denied. Result stands.