Weird Scrimmage Kick Play

[Chiefump]

PLAY: Team A 4th/24 from the Team A 19-yard line. Punter A4 from a scrimmage kick formation, takes the snap at the A9 and attempts to punt the ball, however the ball touches the turf before the punter’s foot kicks the ball. The scrimmage kick clears untouched just above the heads of the linemen and rolls like a squib kick to the A45 where it is picked up by A35 and the play is whistled dead. There were no fouls committed during the play.

The crew felt they had a legitimate drop kick and not kicking of a loose ball. The question then was is this a drop kick (punt) or should it be considered a drop kick field goal attempt even though it was obvious that it was not the intent.

[curlyrefjd]

Punt
ARTICLE 2. A punt is a kick by a player who drops the ball and kicks it before
it strikes the ground.
Drop Kick
ARTICLE 3. A drop kick is a kick by a player who drops the ball and kicks it
as it touches the ground.

[Chiefump]

I got the definitions but is this play a legal kick and where should the ball be put in play.  It is pretty obvious by the distance that this was not a drop kick scoring attempt. 

[TexDoc]

..

[Kalle]

By rule this is a field goal attempt as the action by A4 is a legal (even if unintentional) drop kick. It is untouched by team B beyond the neutral zone so it will be team B's ball at the previous spot, A-19.

[wtagriffin]

By what rule?

[Etref]

By rule a drop kick is when kicking the ball AS it touches the ground not after

[JasonTX]

By what rule?

FR-34  2-16-9:  A field goal attempt is a scrimmage kick.  It may be a place kick or drop kick.

2-16-2: A punt is a kick by a player who drops the ball and kicks it before it strikes the ground.

The only time that the drop kick is not an attempt to score is on a free kick.  A drop kick is not a substitute for a punt.  It is used as an attempt to score instead of using a place kick.

[wtagriffin]

The only time that the drop kick is not an attempt to score is on a free kick.  A drop kick is not a substitute for a punt.  It is used as an attempt to score instead of using a place kick.
[/quote]

Where does this information come from?

Jason, not trying to be argumentative, but just trying to understand this situation.  It seems to be a gray area to me.  2-16-9 says a field goal attempt may be a drop kick but 2-16-3 does not say a drop kick must be a field goal attempt.  The term "field goal place kick" in 2-16-4 and again in 2-16-7 seems to imply that it (a place kick) must be considered a field goal attempt but I don't see where a drop kick, especially one from the Team A 19 yard line, as in our original situation, must be considered a field goal attempt.

[Etref]

May be one you have to see but if he kicked the ball AFTER it hit the ground it was an illegal kick

[Joe Stack]

Its NOT an illegal kick. There are only a few of those: scrimmage kick beyond the NZ, return kick, kicking a ball that isn't teed properly, etc. Everything else illegal would be illegally kicking the ball, and its not that, either.

Don't mean to hijack this, but its way past time to put an end to the distinction between illegal kicks and illegally kicking the ball. Drop the former and put everything in the latter.

[Etref]

You are correct, I mistyped

[clearwall]

This is an interesting discussion and I'm honestly curious about the end decision. Can we rule based on clear intent here, as previously mentioned? Clearly it is an accident, but oftentimes so is PF-FM. We still penalize accordingly. The only way I could argue that this should be ruled a PUNT or treated as such is because of rule 6-1-4 where a drop kick can be used during a play where a FG is not being attempted. However, clearly this is not that scenario. I would side on the "Previous spot" crowd on this one.

[Legacy Zebra]

The problem with using 6-1-4 to defend this as not being a field goal attempt is that 6-1 is about free kicks and this was a scrimmage kick. If there were fewer than four people on one side of the kicker when this happened, would you even consider an illegal formation? Obviously not. For the same reason, it's not a free kick. This is field goal attempt, whether A wanted it to be or not.

[JasonTX]

The problem with using 6-1-4 to defend this as not being a field goal attempt is that 6-1 is about free kicks and this was a scrimmage kick. If there were fewer than four people on one side of the kicker when this happened, would you even consider an illegal formation? Obviously not. For the same reason, it's not a free kick. This is field goal attempt, whether A wanted it to be or not.

Exactly.  The only mention of drop kicks as you stated is on a free kick and a field goal.  A ball that hits the ground and then kicked is not a punt and that is clearly stated in the definitions.

[clearwall]

The problem with using 6-1-4 to defend this as not being a field goal attempt is that 6-1 is about free kicks and this was a scrimmage kick. If there were fewer than four people on one side of the kicker when this happened, would you even consider an illegal formation? Obviously not. For the same reason, it's not a free kick. This is field goal attempt, whether A wanted it to be or not.

Exactly...thats why I said it's not the same scenario. But, playing devils advocate, if you WANTED to defend it, this is the rule you would quote.

[Welpe]

Here's what 8-4-1-a has to say:

ARTICLE 1. a. A field goal shall be scored for the kicking team if a drop kick or
place kick passes over the crossbar between the uprights of the receiving team’s
goal before it touches a player of the kicking team or the ground. The kick shall
be a scrimmage kick but may not be a free kick.

If a dropkick goes through the uprights, three points should be awarded. This part is simple IMO.

The tricky part is what if the snap is outside of the B-20 and the dropkick does not score. What do you do if Team B never touches the ball beyond the neutral zone? Here I believe is where we need to judge a field goal attempt occurred or not. If it is an attempt, Team B gets the ball at the previous spot. If it's not an attempt, then the ball belongs to Team B at the dead ball spot.

This is just my reading of the rules.