Clock question

[CalhounLJ]

Help me out with this one:


3.4.2 SITUATION D:

There are 55 seconds to go in the game when K11 punts the ball from a fourth and 10 situation. R1 catches the kick and returns 10 yards. During the down, but prior to the catch, K3 holds R2. R accepts the penalty.

RULING: After enforcement, the game clock starts on the ready-for-play signal unless the offended team chooses to start the game clock on the snap inside the last two minutes of either half. [3-4-2b(3)]


It’s unclear whether R accepted this penalty from previous or succeeding spot. If it’s succeeding spot, wouldn’t the new series after legal kick mean we start clock on snap?

[SCline]

Yes. If previous spot enforcement R gets the right to have it start on the snap, if succeeding spot then the clock starts on the snap anyway.

[bama_stripes]

The ruling is correct if R chooses previous spot enforcement and 4th down is replayed.

[CalhounLJ]

Thanks. That was my assumption but I wanted to make sure.

[bossman72]

This is where NFHS clock rules are weird during kicks.  Having a legal kick play is not a major clock stopper.  You have to know how the punt play ends if you are replaying 4th down.

Kick goes OOB = Snap.
Fair catch = Snap.
Punt is returned and returner goes OOB = Snap.
Punt is returned and returner tackled in bounds = READY.
Punt is not fielded by anybody and blown dead in field of play (or possessed by K) = READY. (Someone verify that one - not 100%)

[HLinNC]

Punt is returned and returner tackled in bounds = READY.
Punt is not fielded by anybody and blown dead in field of play (or possessed by K) = READY. (Someone verify that one - not 100%)

No

3-4-3: "The game clock shall start with the snap or when any free kick is touched, except 1st touching by K,if the game clock was stopped because:
c)  Either team is awarded a new series following a legal kick

[bossman72]

No

3-4-3: "The game clock shall start with the snap or when any free kick is touched, except 1st touching by K,if the game clock was stopped because:
c)  Either team is awarded a new series following a legal kick

Those scenarios are when 4th down is replayed...  So the first one on the Ready is correct.  The second one I'm not 100% sure.

[refjeff]

Punt is not fielded by anybody and blown dead in field of play (or possessed by K) = READY. (Someone verify that one - not 100%)

Snap.  3.4.3b.   B or R is awarded a new series.

[bossman72]

Snap.  3.4.3b.   B or R is awarded a new series.

They are not awarded a new series, so that's not the correct rule reference.

[ncwingman]

They are not awarded a new series, so that's not the correct rule reference.

Yes, they are.

5.1.3 -- When a scrimmage down ends with the ball in the field of play or out of bounds between the goal lines, a new series is awarded to:

(e). R, if K legally kicks during any scrimmage down and the ball is recovered by R, is in joint possession of opponents, goes out of bounds or becomes dead with no player in possession.

Edit -- I need to add more to this because I think there's some nuance that's getting overblown here. I get that in the scenario, there is a foul that is causing the replay of fourth down -- therefore, R is NOT getting the ball, therefore they clearly aren't getting a new series awarded. However, there's no explicit rule coverage or case book play (that I've found) that covers this exact scenario and I think it would be helpful to think of it from a philosophical point.

The argument is that the clock would only have been stopped at the end of the down *because* of awarding the new series, and since the new series is now off the table, the clock would not have otherwise been stopped. The clock stoppage due to the foul supersedes the new series stoppage, and therefore the new series stoppage is irrelevant since the new series wasn't awarded due to the foul. If this is true, then it should be expanded to all situations -- if the clock was stopped after an incomplete pass, the foul supersedes the incompletion for clock stoppage. With the penalty applied, the incomplete pass is no longer applied as the down is replayed, so the clock stoppage due to the incompletion is irrelevant, right? Of course not.

The problem lies that there are multiple reasons why the clock was stopped at the end of the down. After the scrimmage kick, the clock is stopped immediately when the ball becomes dead because it is apparent that R will be awarded a new series. You do not let the clock continue to run for a few seconds after the ball becomes dead to determine if other action during the down prevents R from being awarded the series. The BJ kills the clock immediately because the ball is dead after a scrimmage kick which would nominally award a new series to R.

Here's my philosophical approach -- if a down is replayed due to penalty, the clock will start on the ready or snap in the same manner as it would *had the penalty been declined*.

If you decline the penalty and don't replay 4th down, the clock starts on the snap. Therefore, if you replay 4th down due to penalty, the clock also starts on the snap.

[CalhounLJ]

Yes, they are.

5.1.3 -- When a scrimmage down ends with the ball in the field of play or out of bounds between the goal lines, a new series is awarded to:

(e). R, if K legally kicks during any scrimmage down and the ball is recovered by R, is in joint possession of opponents, goes out of bounds or becomes dead with no player in possession.

Edit -- I need to add more to this because I think there's some nuance that's getting overblown here. I get that in the scenario, there is a foul that is causing the replay of fourth down -- therefore, R is NOT getting the ball, therefore they clearly aren't getting a new series awarded. However, there's no explicit rule coverage or case book play (that I've found) that covers this exact scenario and I think it would be helpful to think of it from a philosophical point.

The argument is that the clock would only have been stopped at the end of the down *because* of awarding the new series, and since the new series is now off the table, the clock would not have otherwise been stopped. The clock stoppage due to the foul supersedes the new series stoppage, and therefore the new series stoppage is irrelevant since the new series wasn't awarded due to the foul. If this is true, then it should be expanded to all situations -- if the clock was stopped after an incomplete pass, the foul supersedes the incompletion for clock stoppage. With the penalty applied, the incomplete pass is no longer applied as the down is replayed, so the clock stoppage due to the incompletion is irrelevant, right? Of course not.

The problem lies that there are multiple reasons why the clock was stopped at the end of the down. After the scrimmage kick, the clock is stopped immediately when the ball becomes dead because it is apparent that R will be awarded a new series. You do not let the clock continue to run for a few seconds after the ball becomes dead to determine if other action during the down prevents R from being awarded the series. The BJ kills the clock immediately because the ball is dead after a scrimmage kick which would nominally award a new series to R.

Here's my philosophical approach -- if a down is replayed due to penalty, the clock will start on the ready or snap in the same manner as it would *had the penalty been declined*.

If you decline the penalty and don't replay 4th down, the clock starts on the snap. Therefore, if you replay 4th down due to penalty, the clock also starts on the snap.

5-1-2 tells us that a new series is NOT awarded until all penalties are considered. Therefore, in this situation a née series was never awarded.

ART. 2 ... A new series of downs is awarded:

a. After a first, second or third down, a new series of downs shall be awarded only after considering the effect of any act during the down other than nonplayer or unsportsmanlike conduct fouls by A, and any dead-ball foul by B.

b. After a fourth down, a new series of downs shall be awarded only after considering the effect of any act during the down, except a nonplayer or unsportsmanlike foul.


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[CalhounLJ]

The problem lies that there are multiple reasons why the clock was stopped at the end of the down. After the scrimmage kick, the clock is stopped immediately when the ball becomes dead because it is apparent that R will be awarded a new series. You do not let the clock continue to run for a few seconds after the ball becomes dead to determine if other action during the down prevents R from being awarded the series. The BJ kills the clock immediately because the ball is dead after a scrimmage kick which would nominally award a new series to R.
This is a good discussion. Thanks. I happen to disagree with this suggestion, though. Technically, in this situation, the clock was stopped because of the penalty, not the awarding of a new series. If there is no flag, then once R is in possession at the end of the down, it is true we would stop the clock for the awarding of a new series. In the case of a declined penalty, the process would be: #1 - Stop the clock to deal with the flag. #2 - Once the penalty is declined, stop the clock to award a new series. While we don't actually stop the clock twice, the progression is still the same.

Here's my philosophical approach -- if a down is replayed due to penalty, the clock will start on the ready or snap in the same manner as it would *had the penalty been declined*.
This is a good philosophy to practice, and should be practiced in this situation, assuming you follow the progression listed above. in this particular situation, If the penalty is declined, the only reason we would stop the clock is to award a new series to R. The result of the play was a player downed in the field of play, which dictates a running clock.
If you decline the penalty and don't replay 4th down, the clock starts on the snap. Therefore, if you replay 4th down due to penalty, the clock also starts on the snap.

[ncwingman]

The result of the play was a player downed in the field of play, which dictates a running clock.

The major problem I have with this is the suggestion after a legal scrimmage kick, and there exists a scenario where the clock may not stop when the ball, in R's possession, becomes dead.

[bossman72]

However, there's no explicit rule coverage or case book play (that I've found) that covers this exact scenario

Yes there is.  It's the original post case play.  3.4.2D.

It's replaying 4th down and going on the ready after the ball is returned 10 yards.

[CalhounLJ]

we really need a like or retweet button...

[bama_stripes]

Y’all are overthinking this.

Prior to 1996, the clock started on the RFP after a new series following a legal scrimmage kick as long as the ball stayed inbounds and there was no fair catch or awarded fair catch.  The rule was changed to allow teams to mass substitute without time elapsing during the process.

In the OP, K is going to rekick following penalty administration, so no substitution is necessary.  Clock starts on the RFP.

[CalhounLJ]

Not to be picky, but I don't think it's "y'all" who is overthinking this. The vast majority agree with you.

[NVFOA_Ump]

Problem here IMHO is the original play as listed does not have the minimum amount of information needed to fully understand what happened here including what the end result of the play was.  I thought that the purpose of case plays is stated to be a SPECIFIC set of circumstances that result in a SPECIFIC result.  This case play as listed IMHO has neither.

[CalhounLJ]

There are 55 seconds to go in the game when K11 punts the ball from a fourth and 10 situation. R1 catches the kick and returns 10 yards. During the down, but prior to the catch, K3 holds R2. R accepts the penalty.

What's missing?

[Curious]

What's missing is that the offended team has, in this situation (< two minutes left in the 4th quarter), the option to start the clock on the snap. So, even if R chooses the previous spot and have the down replayed, they COULD choose to start the clock on the snap.

[CalhounLJ]

Help me out with this one:


3.4.2 SITUATION D:

There are 55 seconds to go in the game when K11 punts the ball from a fourth and 10 situation. R1 catches the kick and returns 10 yards. During the down, but prior to the catch, K3 holds R2. R accepts the penalty.

RULING: After enforcement, the game clock starts on the ready-for-play signal unless the offended team chooses to start the game clock on the snap inside the last two minutes of either half. [3-4-2b(3)]


It’s unclear whether R accepted this penalty from previous or succeeding spot. If it’s succeeding spot, wouldn’t the new series after legal kick mean we start clock on snap?

Did you read the OP before posting?

[Curious]

Did you read the OP before posting?

Yes I did.  My point was that, regardless of what R's decision is (i.e. previous or succeeding spot) they would have the choice to start the clock on the snap.

[CalhounLJ]

Yes I did.  My point was that, regardless of what R's decision is (i.e. previous or succeeding spot) they would have the choice to start the clock on the snap.

Well, the part about R accepting from previous spot with the choice is in the OP. Your position is incorrect regarding succeeding spot though. There is no choice in that situation.

Also, there’s nothing missing in the case play that would prevent us from knowing what happened or the final result of the play. Which was the immediate question.


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[NVFOA_Ump]

Help me out with this one:

  ..... It’s unclear whether R accepted this penalty from previous or succeeding spot. If it’s succeeding spot, wouldn’t the new series after legal kick mean we start clock on snap?

    .... Also, there’s nothing missing in the case play that would prevent us from knowing what happened or the final result of the play. Which was the immediate question.

Isn't this information at a minimum required in a valid case play?  If there is nothing missing why are we discussing the information that is not here that would answer the question?  IMHO we should not have to assume key information that would lead to the result listed.

[CalhounLJ]

Problem here IMHO is the original play as listed does not have the minimum amount of information needed to fully understand what happened here including what the end result of the play was.  I thought that the purpose of case plays is stated to be a SPECIFIC set of circumstances that result in a SPECIFIC result.  This case play as listed IMHO has neither.

According to this post, you are suggesting the case play doesn’t have enough information for us to determine:
1. What happened here. I suggest it does. There was a punt, a return by R, and a foul by K during the kick.

2. The end result of the play. The end result of the play is R in possession at the end of the down after a 10 yard return.

What’s missing? The question I’m posing has nothing to do with either. I suspect this case play is a remnant left over from before the succeeding spot option was added to the rule.

Regardless, the situation has ample information to come to a decision regarding clock status. Doesn’t it?


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