Author Topic: HARK, 'TIS TIME FOR SANTA'S WISH LIST........  (Read 4673 times)

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Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: HARK, 'TIS TIME FOR SANTA'S WISH LIST........
« Reply #50 on: January 13, 2024, 07:35:04 AM »
Ralph, are these the only propose rules changes there going to considered for 2024. What about unsportmanlike conduct foul by defense automatic 1st down. Also on the 2023 NFHS Rules questionnaire. Encroachment being a live ball foul.
I missed posting the proposal on encroachment. It would make encroachment ON A FREE KICK alive ball foul. This usually occurs on an attempted onside kick and contact is already happening when blown dead. This would be treated as a tack-on if on K nd recovered by R.

I'd support this. What say you  ??? :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR:

Offline ted skoundrianos

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Re: HARK, 'TIS TIME FOR SANTA'S WISH LIST........
« Reply #51 on: January 13, 2024, 07:53:11 AM »
Ralph, I would support this rule change making encroachment on free-kick a live ball foul.

Offline ted skoundrianos

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Re: HARK, 'TIS TIME FOR SANTA'S WISH LIST........
« Reply #52 on: January 13, 2024, 08:01:54 AM »
Ralph, what pct of officials and coaches participating voted for the propose 2024 rule changes.

Offline Rob S

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Re: HARK, 'TIS TIME FOR SANTA'S WISH LIST........
« Reply #53 on: January 13, 2024, 10:17:22 AM »
I missed posting the proposal on encroachment. It would make encroachment ON A FREE KICK alive ball foul. This usually occurs on an attempted onside kick and contact is already happening when blown dead. This would be treated as a tack-on if on K nd recovered by R.

I'd support this. What say you  ??? :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR:

I think this is more efficient and improves safety. There's a lot of contact on an onside kick and by the time we see the encroachment, blow the whistle, and teams process, the contact is occuring. So right now we have two rounds of contact where we might be able to just do one if R recovers.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: HARK, 'TIS TIME FOR SANTA'S WISH LIST........
« Reply #54 on: January 13, 2024, 10:22:09 AM »
Ralph, what pct of officials and coaches participating voted for the propose 2024 rule changes.
55% of coaches and 57% of officials voted for live - ball encrochment. IMHO, the stated question was vague as only free-kick encroachment is proposed as live-ball. While scrimmage down encroachment has came up a few times,it has never gained much support. When the rule was changed in 1975 making it a dead ball foul, my job as a  :o wide-eyed  :o wingman became much easier. Judging if B jumping in and out of the NZ caused A to flinch was always a challange ::). I wouldn't support going back to that.
 :sTiR:
« Last Edit: January 13, 2024, 11:20:59 AM by Ralph Damren »

Offline ted skoundrianos

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Re: HARK, 'TIS TIME FOR SANTA'S WISH LIST........
« Reply #55 on: January 13, 2024, 10:04:03 PM »
Ralph, the propose rule change making encroachment on a live-ball foul. It's only for onside kicks or for all free -kicks. What your your opinion on this passing this year. Also what pct of officials and coaches on prospose rule change on DPI Automatic 1st down. All personal fouls by Automatic 1st.

Offline bossman72

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Re: HARK, 'TIS TIME FOR SANTA'S WISH LIST........
« Reply #56 on: January 14, 2024, 09:38:10 AM »
I missed posting the proposal on encroachment. It would make encroachment ON A FREE KICK alive ball foul. This usually occurs on an attempted onside kick and contact is already happening when blown dead. This would be treated as a tack-on if on K nd recovered by R.

I'd support this. What say you  ??? :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR:

Create a definition for this of "Offside" (live ball foul) as to differentiate between "Encroachment" (dead ball foul).  We don't want 2 different types of encroachment.

Offline ncwingman

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Re: HARK, 'TIS TIME FOR SANTA'S WISH LIST........
« Reply #57 on: January 14, 2024, 10:48:04 AM »
I'd support that too.

Can we also get a delay of game foul for any coach behind the official who yells "He's offsides!" when all players are still two yards behind the line and the ball has already been kicked? That seems to be a new tactic in my area to "get the idea in my head" or something...

Create a definition for this of "Offside" (live ball foul) as to differentiate between "Encroachment" (dead ball foul).  We don't want 2 different types of encroachment.

Ooh! Can we add the phrase "Unabated to the quarterback" to the rule book?

I'd agree to the split definition -- being *in* the neutral zone at the snap (or free kick) is offsides and is a live ball foul ("at the snap" also allows for a player to get back), being *beyond* the neutral zone prior to the snap (or free kick) is encroachment and a dead ball foul (part 2 -- in the zone and making contact with an opponent is dead ball encroachment as well).

Offline ted skoundrianos

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Re: HARK, 'TIS TIME FOR SANTA'S WISH LIST........
« Reply #58 on: January 14, 2024, 12:37:48 PM »
ncwingman, The encroachment making it a live ball is only on free-kicks. I think that propose rule will change. I would like to change the encroachment from dead ball to live ball offside. On scrimmage downs. I disgree with ralph on judging if B jumping in and out of NZ causing A to flich . If B jumps in the NZ and get back without contacting the offense linesman that nothing. If A flinches that a false start. It's kind of funny the there changed free-kicks from live-ball  offside to dead-ball encroachment in 1977. 47 years it looks light the free-kicks might go back to live-ball offside in 2024. I never though that the might change to free-kicks to live-ball offside from dead-ball encroachment. But then I didn't think the fouls by A or B behind the LOS would be a previous spot foul. The NFHS was the last to code to change the ABO TO previous spot. NCAA changed to previous spot in 2001. The NFL changed to previous spot in 1975. I agree we have to have 2 difference types. Encroachment dead-ball on scrimmage downs. Offside on free-kicks. In 1976 they changed offside live-ball on scrimmage downs. To encroachment dead-ball on scrimmage downs. So that change has been 48 years. Maybe next year they might change back the encroachment dead-ball on scrimmage downs. To live-ball offside on scrimmage downs.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2024, 08:15:30 PM by ted skoundrianos »

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: HARK, 'TIS TIME FOR SANTA'S WISH LIST........
« Reply #59 on: January 14, 2024, 01:11:09 PM »
Ralph, please tell me it is “Offside,” and not “Offsides.” Singular. Not plural.
Please. PLEASE.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: HARK, 'TIS TIME FOR SANTA'S WISH LIST........
« Reply #60 on: January 15, 2024, 08:05:17 AM »
ncwingman, The encroachment making it a live ball is only on free-kicks. I think that propose rule will change. I would like to change the encroachment from dead ball to live ball offside. On scrimmage downs. I disgree with ralph on judging if B jumping in and out of NZ causing A to flich . If B jumps in the NZ and get back without contacting the offense linesman that nothing. If A flinches that a false start. It's kind of funny the there changed free-kicks from live-ball  offside to dead-ball encroachment in 1977. 47 years it looks light the free-kicks might go back to live-ball offside in 2024. I never though that the might change to free-kicks to live-ball offside from dead-ball encroachment. But then I didn't think the fouls by A or B behind the LOS would be a previous spot foul. The NFHS was the last to code to change the ABO TO previous spot. NCAA changed to previous spot in 2001. The NFL changed to previous spot in 1975. I agree we have to have 2 difference types. Encroachment dead-ball on scrimmage downs. Offside on free-kicks. In 1976 they changed offside live-ball on scrimmage downs. To encroachment dead-ball on scrimmage downs. So that change has been 48 years. Maybe next year they might change back the encroachment dead-ball on scrimmage downs. To live-ball offside on scrimmage downs.
Allowing B to enter the neutral zone and get back without penalty, but penalizing A for moving if he does is unfair to A. The best option is to leave it like it is.

Offline ted skoundrianos

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Re: HARK, 'TIS TIME FOR SANTA'S WISH LIST........
« Reply #61 on: January 15, 2024, 06:02:37 PM »
CalhounLJ  If B enter the neutral zone and get back without penalty, but penalizing for for moving if he does is unfair to A. How is that unfair B didn't cause to to move A did by himself. I can see if B entered the neutral zone and making A committed a false start then I would agree with your statement. I like college and pro rule.

Offline bama_stripes

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Re: HARK, 'TIS TIME FOR SANTA'S WISH LIST........
« Reply #62 on: January 16, 2024, 07:49:04 AM »
Allowing B to enter the neutral zone and get back without penalty, but penalizing A for moving if he does is unfair to A. The best option is to leave it like it is.
:thumbup

Offline ted skoundrianos

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Re: HARK, 'TIS TIME FOR SANTA'S WISH LIST........
« Reply #63 on: January 17, 2024, 02:32:49 PM »
bama-stripes, it doesn't matter the high school code will never go back to live-ball offside on scrimmage downs. At least they might change free-kicks to live-ball-ball offside. Will have to wait and see if that one of those propose rules changes for the 2024 football season.

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: HARK, 'TIS TIME FOR SANTA'S WISH LIST........
« Reply #64 on: January 17, 2024, 07:37:57 PM »
bama-stripes, it doesn't matter the high school code will never go back to live-ball offside on scrimmage downs. At least they might change free-kicks to live-ball-ball offside. Will have to wait and see if that one of those propose rules changes for the 2024 football season.

I would think that B, moving before the actual snap/or movement by A, gives B and advantage over his A target, who is required to wait for the snap before responding.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: HARK, 'TIS TIME FOR SANTA'S WISH LIST........
« Reply #65 on: January 18, 2024, 06:58:28 AM »
Sorry for not respond to you guys since last Saturday. I left for the Bangor airport at Sunday morn at 4 AM. Ole' Dell, my trusty computer, is a desktop and doesn't make. road trips. Just got home late last night after playing musical airports - Indy>Phila > Columbus,Ohio > D.C. > Bangor. You haven't lived until you've slept on the floor in Columbus airport  :puke:. Problem: Snowing in Bangor ! :o.

I don't feel I can comment on your questions  until NFHS Press Relase in a couple of weeks. Sorry, guys.

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: HARK, 'TIS TIME FOR SANTA'S WISH LIST........
« Reply #66 on: January 18, 2024, 09:09:56 AM »
You haven't lived until you've slept on the floor in Columbus airport.

You call that living? You are confused, my friend. That snow has messed with your mind. You may need to trade snow for west Texas dust storms! Combine the dust with rain, and you literally have mud storms! Way more fun. Oh. Wait. It was 5 degrees here Tuesday morning. That ain't fun, even if we were blessed enough to not have moisture with it.

To get you back on track, I will ask again: In NFHS, is it "Offsides" (plural)? Or "Offside" (singular)? Please tell me it is the singular "Offside." PLEASE!

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: HARK, 'TIS TIME FOR SANTA'S WISH LIST........
« Reply #67 on: January 18, 2024, 09:38:02 AM »
You call that living? You are confused, my friend. That snow has messed with your mind. You may need to trade snow for west Texas dust storms! Combine the dust with rain, and you literally have mud storms! Way more fun. Oh. Wait. It was 5 degrees here Tuesday morning. That ain't fun, even if we were blessed enough to not have moisture with it.

To get you back on track, I will ask again: In NFHS, is it "Offsides" (plural)? Or "Offside" (singular)? Please tell me it is the singular "Offside." PLEASE!


Actually, it's neither.  NFHS uses the term "encroachment".  The term "offside(s)" does not appear in any NFHS football rules related documents that I am aware of.  In the context of football rules it is an NCAA/NFL exclusive term. 
« Last Edit: January 18, 2024, 09:43:19 AM by NVFOA_Ump »
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Offline ElvisLives

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Re: HARK, 'TIS TIME FOR SANTA'S WISH LIST........
« Reply #68 on: January 18, 2024, 10:12:13 AM »

Actually, it's neither.  NFHS uses the term "encroachment".  The term "offside(s)" does not appear in any NFHS football rules related documents that I am aware of.  In the context of football rules it is an NCAA/NFL exclusive term.

Well, first, glad you are ‘back in the saddle,’ and safe at home. Second, good to know about NFHS terminology. But, if you ever adopt a rule change that uses the term “Offside,” please make sure everyone knows that it is the singular (Offside), and not the plural. Been waging that war on the NCAA side of the fence for a very long time. Redding tried to fix it. Shaw is trying to fix it. I don’t know where anybody gets the idea that the plural is correct. It isn’t. Singular. SINGULAR! Offside. How easy is that?
Stay warm!

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: HARK, 'TIS TIME FOR SANTA'S WISH LIST........
« Reply #69 on: January 18, 2024, 01:05:20 PM »
While I can't tell you what's hot and what's not, I can tell you that Steve Shaw, a NCAA rules guru, spoke. An early question was : "Why doesn't the NCAA have a rule regarding knee pads and the lack thereoff  ??? ???" His answer was :"We do, the coaches just won't enforce it :o :o !" There seemed to be something misplaced with such a pecking order  :o ::) hEaDbAnG.

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: HARK, 'TIS TIME FOR SANTA'S WISH LIST........
« Reply #70 on: January 18, 2024, 02:21:46 PM »
While I can't tell you what's hot and what's not, I can tell you that Steve Shaw, a NCAA rules guru, spoke. An early question was : "Why doesn't the NCAA have a rule regarding knee pads and the lack thereoff  ??? ???" His answer was :"We do, the coaches just won't enforce it :o :o !" There seemed to be something misplaced with such a pecking order  :o ::) hEaDbAnG.

Thankfully, the knee pad /pants / hip pads / tailbone protector issues didn’t become issues until after my retirement from FBS. But, we still had mouthpieces and socks to deal with during my days. Having ‘been there, done that’ for those issues, I can testify that officials want to do the right thing, but there is no support for them regarding uniform and equipment rules. Coaches don’t care. They will allow anything, if they think they can get even the tiniest competitive advantage, or at least they match what the other team is getting away with, and don’t get put at a disadvantage.
The only way to get change on these rules is for an official to decide his career is over, anyway, so why not go out with a bang, and bring attention to these issues, by, on the first play of a game a national TV, sending out every player who’s knees aren’t covered and padded, who don’t have a mouthpiece, hip pads, or tailbone protectors, and not allow them to re-enter until the violation is corrected. Oh. What? You don’t have 11 players that are compliant? Well, then, I guess that’s a forfeit. What’s that you say? The other team doesn’t have 11 compliant players either? Then I guess that’s a double forfeit. Bye.

No one wants to be that guy. But, no one will stand up and support us when we try to make them get into compliance. They just tell us we’re being too technical.

So, there. That’s why you see what you see in NCAA football.

Here is a scenario that might elicit change: BC A33 is being tackled by an opponent pulling on his pony tail, which causes A33’s bare kneecap to strike B77 directly on the tip of B77’s unpadded coccyx, breaking B77’s coccyx and dislocating A33’s kneecap. As he falls to the ground, A33’s helmeted head is contacted forcibly by the unpadded hip bone of B99, breaking B99’s hip bone. A33, not wearing a mouthpiece, bites his tongue severely, and sustains a severe concussion by the contact with B99’s hip. As there are no ‘contact’ or UNS/UNR fouls during the down, the only action following the down is the removal of A33, B77, and B99 from the game for their injuries. None are able to return to the game. A33, B77, and B99 - all pre-season All-Americans and top ten NFL draft prospects, are medically prevented from playing for at least the next 21 days, to recover from their injuries, causing them to miss their conference championship games, and dramatically reducing their ‘stock’ in the draft.

That might get folks to re-thinking these things.    Nah.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: HARK, 'TIS TIME FOR SANTA'S WISH LIST........
« Reply #71 on: January 20, 2024, 08:59:32 AM »
CalhounLJ  If B enter the neutral zone and get back without penalty, but penalizing for for moving if he does is unfair to A. How is that unfair B didn't cause to to move A did by himself. I can see if B entered the neutral zone and making A committed a false start then I would agree with your statement. I like college and pro rule.
I'm not sure I understand your question. It seems like you have contradicted yourself with the next to last sentence. "I can see if B entered the neutral zone and making A committed a false start." That's what I'm talking about...

It's unfair to A Because the act of B charging across the neutral zone will surely cause A to want to block him, causing A to false start.  What you will see if this were to pass would be B players jumping in and out in an effort to try and get A to move. It would create an unfair advantage for B.

Offline ted skoundrianos

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Re: HARK, 'TIS TIME FOR SANTA'S WISH LIST........
« Reply #72 on: January 20, 2024, 10:56:44 AM »
RALPH, way to early what 2025 propose rules changes would you like see changed next year!

Offline ted skoundrianos

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Re: HARK, 'TIS TIME FOR SANTA'S WISH LIST........
« Reply #73 on: January 20, 2024, 11:13:17 AM »
CalhounLJ, If B enters the neutral & doesn't get back causing A to committed a false start that encroachment. But in 13 years of working line judge/headlinesman I never saw a committed a false start if B enters the neutral zone & get back. It's doesn't matter the nfhs rules committee will never change the rule back. from encroachment dead-ball. To offside live-ball. Maybe the free-kicks might change this from enchroachment dead-ball. To offside live-ball. Will just have to wait to see the 2024 football changes sometime in February.

Offline ncwingman

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Re: HARK, 'TIS TIME FOR SANTA'S WISH LIST........
« Reply #74 on: January 20, 2024, 01:13:14 PM »
The only way to get change on these rules is for an official to decide his career is over, anyway, so why not go out with a bang, and bring attention to these issues, by, on the first play of a game a national TV, sending out every player who’s knees aren’t covered and padded, who don’t have a mouthpiece, hip pads, or tailbone protectors, and not allow them to re-enter until the violation is corrected. Oh. What? You don’t have 11 players that are compliant? Well, then, I guess that’s a forfeit. What’s that you say? The other team doesn’t have 11 compliant players either? Then I guess that’s a double forfeit. Bye.

If I remember correctly, knee pads were a POE in NCAA a few years ago (a quick google search says it was in 2018) -- and I remember watching the first game of the season of the local college where the crew took it to heart and removed multiple players on both teams in the first couple plays. Suddenly, it all stopped -- after about play 5, never again. I think somebody told them to knock it off, and the immediately rescinded the POE and it was never mentioned again. I do NOT think they players learned their lesson and started covering their knees, mostly because I was standing on the sideline and could easily see they were not.