Penalty after ball is set-or maybe not

[CalhounLJ]

Got a call from a WH today. This happened in his game Friday: A ran for first down continued oob. They worked a new ball in, umpire set it dow. And chains moved. While all this was going on, A nonplayer for A pushed B as B was returning inbounds. Flag came out. Since the chains had already been set and the ball was already down, they marked the penalty off and made it 1st and 25. What y’all say?  I say the push was part of the previous series and it should have been 1st and 10 after the penalty. But I’m not sure. There’s an argument to be had for a penalty after the ready because the ball was down.


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[NVFOA_Ump]

A bit difficult to visualize a situation where A was OB in the B area longer than the time it took to get a new ball in, get it set down, and have the box and chains in place before the foul by B occurred.  That being said, if in the WH's judgment that was the case, then the 15 yards would correctly be enforced from the succeeding spot after the virtual RFP had been given and it would result in 1st and 25.

I would think a "more lenient" enforcement as suggested by CalhounLJ  would be appropriate and treat the DB foul as a "continuation" of the previous play, 15 yards from the DB spot then set the chains and go 1st and 10. We would "normally" not have a 1st and 25 after a DB foul enforcement unless the 22 players we all back on the field and some extracurricular activity not directly related to the previous play happened.

[Magician]

A bit difficult to visualize a situation where A was OB in the B area longer than the time it took to get a new ball in, get it set down, and have the box and chains in place before the foul by B occurred.  That being said, if in the WH's judgment that was the case, then the 15 yards would correctly be enforced from the succeeding spot after the virtual RFP had been given and it would result in 1st and 25.

I would think a "more lenient" enforcement as suggested by CalhounLJ  would be appropriate and treat the DB foul as a "continuation" of the previous play, 15 yards from the DB spot then set the chains and go 1st and 10. We would "normally" not have a 1st and 25 after a DB foul enforcement unless the 22 players we all back on the field and some extracurricular activity not directly related to the previous play happened.

This is my thought as well. I wouldn't even think about leaving the sideline with the new ball until I know the opposing players are out. If there are opposing players in the bench area my R and/or B are in there with them walking them out. If that's the case the ball isn't ready for play because the officials aren't ready yet. If the officials are all in their positions and the ball is placed and there are opposing players in the team bench area, we aren't doing our jobs properly.

This brings up again this misconception mentioned here several times that the intent of the 40-second play clock is to get the ball placed as soon as possible and that is not the case. The NFHS has published things that help support this thought, but it's never been the intent at any level where it's implemented previously (NFL, NCAA, NFHS experimental states). A good, efficient pace is the goal, but having the ball placed around 28-32 seconds is a decent, normal pace. It's similar to the 12-15 second pace recommended with the 25-second play clock from dead to whistle. The problem was that was difficult to do consistently so teams would sometimes have 30 seconds after the previous play to get the ball snapped and other times have 60 seconds. Now they almost always have 40 regardless of how fast the ball is ready. It's all about the BACK end of the play clock on the not the FRONT end. I'm hoping the committee realizes this and clarifies it next year.

[bama_stripes]

Sounds like 1st-and-10 to me.  And I doubt that A’s coach would even argue for 1st-and-25.

[Ralph Damren]

If the ball is already down, but the umpire hasn't cleared away from it. I would say 1-10. R shouldn't clear U until entire crew is set and the flagging official probably wasn't.

[CalhounLJ]

If the ball is already down, but the umpire hasn't cleared away from it. I would say 1-10. R shouldn't clear U until entire crew is set and the flagging official probably wasn't.

Yeah I think that was the problem. The way he described it to me, while a new ball was being worked in by the L, and the chains were being moved, the S was still oob trying to get B back inbounds. He told me the flag came out “way late.”


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[Ralph Damren]

QUIZ II......

(1) 1 & 10 @ 50, 1:00 to go;
(2) A runs up to LOS and snaps the ball while  U  stands over it;
(3)  DOG.

What's the new situation 

[/YOU MAKE THE CALLb]

[AlUpstateNY]

QUIZ II......

(1) 1 & 10 @ 50, 1:00 to go;
(2) A runs up to LOS and snaps the ball while  U  stands over it;
(3)  DOG.

What's the new situation 

[/YOU MAKE THE CALLb]

Just my 2 cents;  why the change to a "silent RFP signal"? Seems like an unnecessary BAD idea.  For 100 years (or so) the Referee specifically declared THE INSTANT the ball was declared RFP, with a whistle & signal (snap or wind), so EVERYBODY was ALERTED to what had happened (whether they were looking at the Umpire, or not) consistently AT THE SAME MOMENT. 

Without the consistent whistle and signal (announcing what has happened) black and white has reverted to all shades of gray, and potential confusion.

WHY, what did we GAIN by eliminating that definitive, CONFIRMING signal?   

[sczeebra]

Who's 50 yard line Ralph?

[Ralph Damren]

Who's 50 yard line Ralph?

A question only for the CFL 

[Magician]

Just my 2 cents;  why the change to a "silent RFP signal"? Seems like an unnecessary BAD idea.  For 100 years (or so) the Referee specifically declared THE INSTANT the ball was declared RFP, with a whistle & signal (snap or wind), so EVERYBODY was ALERTED to what had happened (whether they were looking at the Umpire, or not) consistently AT THE SAME MOMENT. 

Without the consistent whistle and signal (announcing what has happened) black and white has reverted to all shades of gray, and potential confusion.

WHY, what did we GAIN by eliminating that definitive, CONFIRMING signal?   

I think the primary reason for the silent wind is we can now start the game clock separate from making the ball ready for play. Technically the rule says the R winds it when ready for play but outside the end of a half of a close game, but with the 40 you could wind the game clock as the U is moving to place the ball to get it going a little faster.

I argue you could still give it a quick toot at that point. I was white hat for a very close game and the team with the ball was trying to go quickly because they needed to conserve as much time as possible. Then I made sure I didn't start the game clock after a first down until the ball was actually ready for play. And I told the QB I would give him a quick toot so he knew for certain he could snap the ball.

[CalhounLJ]

Sorry that response was meant for the “whose 50” comment. I got interrupted before I could post it.

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[GA Umpire]

QUIZ II......

(1) 1 & 10 @ 50, 1:00 to go;
(2) A runs up to LOS and snaps the ball while  U  stands over it;
(3)  DOG.

What's the new situation 

[/YOU MAKE THE CALLb]

1st and 10.  The ball is not ready if the U is still standing over it.

Question:  Why did the U allow the snap?   ?

[Magician]

1st and 10.  The ball is not ready if the U is still standing over it.

Question:  Why did the U allow the snap?   ?

If I'm standing over it generally the U can't even grab it. This is more likely to happen if I've stepped away but told the QB and C to wait for the whistle (assuming we are in a 25-second play clock for whatever reason). Once a year it seems they ignore me or somehow didn't hear me and snap it anyway. This is technically a DOG but we generally reset and go.

[NVFOA_Ump]

If I'm standing over it generally the U can't even grab it. This is more likely to happen if I've stepped away but told the QB and C to wait for the whistle (assuming we are in a 25-second play clock for whatever reason). Once a year it seems they ignore me or somehow didn't hear me and snap it anyway. This is technically a DOG but we generally reset and go.

Agreed,  1st time we kill it, have a talk to, and reset the ball.  2nd time, DOG.

[Ralph Damren]

I left out a key point in my question -"after the chains were set" - where the old RFP signal is replaced by the ump stepping away from the ball, the DOG would have occurred BEFORE the ball was marked ready for play. Therefore, the chains would be re-set to 1 & 10, not left at 1 & 15.