Foul Carry Over in OT

[dwoicke]

Well guys, just when I thought I had the carry over rule in OT comprehended, I found something in the Referee 2023 Prep Football Magazine that left me scratching my head.  It's on page 28, Play 3.  I have attached a picture.  Here it is:

Play 3: B1 commits a personal foul during a touchdown during the first possession of overtime or extra periods.
Ruling 3: Team A can opt to have the penalty enforced before the try or have the penalty enforced on the opponent's first possession.  If the later option is chosen, team B would start its series at the opponent's 25 yard line.

Until I read this I was certain it had to be taken on the try because there is no "Subsequent Kickoff" as stated in rule 8-2-3.  Is referee magazine wrong?  If not, why would the first possession of OT be different than the second possession of OT?  Reference of any case that supports Referee Magazine?

-Dan

[Derek Teigen]

Section 8.2 and 8.3 cover this as penalties by b on a touchdown are always enforced on the ensuing kickoff but since there is no kickoff they will be enforced on the try

This is logical because we don't even know yet if there will be an overtime or not....

If b comitts a foul on the try those penalties can carry over because they are enforced from the succeeding spot.

[CalhounLJ]

Well guys, just when I thought I had the carry over rule in OT comprehended, I found something in the Referee 2023 Prep Football Magazine that left me scratching my head.  It's on page 28, Play 3.  I have attached a picture.  Here it is:

Play 3: B1 commits a personal foul during a touchdown during the first possession of overtime or extra periods.
Ruling 3: Team A can opt to have the penalty enforced before the try or have the penalty enforced on the opponent's first possession.  If the later option is chosen, team B would start its series at the opponent's 25 yard line.

Until I read this I was certain it had to be taken on the try because there is no "Subsequent Kickoff" as stated in rule 8-2-3.  Is referee magazine wrong?  If not, why would the first possession of OT be different than the second possession of OT?  Reference of any case that supports Referee Magazine?

-Dan

Moral of this story,never take a publications “ruling” as gospel. You are correct.  On a touchdown scoring play, the only options are the try and the subsequent kickoff. If you don’t have a subsequent kickoff,  the only option is the try.  Now, if that happened on a field goal or try, then A COULD have the penalty enforced at the succeeding spot, which would be the first possession in overtime, or the next possession if we were already in overtime. This is why terms like succeeding spot are important. 

[ncwingman]

Section 8.2 and 8.3 cover this as penalties by b on a touchdown are always enforced on the ensuing kickoff but since there is no kickoff they will be enforced on the try

This is logical because we don't even know yet if there will be an overtime or not....

If b comitts a foul on the try those penalties can carry over because they are enforced from the succeeding spot.

a) They aren't always enforced on the ensuing kickoff, as there is the option to enforce on the try

b) The scenario takes place during overtime, not the down in which time expires for the fourth quarter, so yes there will be overtime because we're in it already

However, I believe that article is incorrect in its interpretation. A foul by B on a touchdown scoring play can be assessed on the try or subsequent kickoff, and since there is no kickoff the only option is the try. On page 88 of the rule book there is an interpretation, 3.1.1.A, with an USC foul after a touchdown but before the try. The only enforcement option in this scenario is on the succeeding spot -- the try. A foul by B during a successful try or field goal can be enforced at the succeeding spot as well, the first play of the next series.

Finally, NFHS has a suggested procedure for resolving tied games, but it is not required to be followed. State associations are free to "accept it as written, amended, or rejected, in whole or part", so your local overtime procedures may vary and allow the penalty to be bridged as described in the article.

[Fatso]

Like others have said, appears the mag is wrong.

Foul during a TD = enforce on try or subsequent kickoff  (if no kickoff, can only be on the try)
Foul during FG or Try = enforce + replay down, or enforce from succeeding spot.

[Ralph Damren]

Agree with all to disagree with the mag.

[bama_stripes]

RefMag is notorious for incorrect Case Play rulings.  I’ve never figured that out, since they’re not especially time-sensitive, and the authors & editors should have plenty of opportunities to pass them around for vetting.

It’s the main reason I stopped subscribing.

[HLinNC]

It’s the main reason I stopped subscribing.

 

[NVFOA_Ump]

Finally, NFHS has a suggested procedure for resolving tied games, but it is not required to be followed. State associations are free to "accept it as written, amended, or rejected, in whole or part", so your local overtime procedures may vary and allow the penalty to be bridged as described in the article.

Just suggesting that in this OP were already in "extra periods" and individual states have different versions of what's going on with this enforcement. According to some posted states "guidelines" in extra periods the penalty can carry over.  I don't believe that we can make a blanket statement regarding the original post and as ncwingman noted how this is handled should be reviewed at the state level to confirm what extra periods rules are being used.

[CalhounLJ]

Just suggesting that in this OP were already in "extra periods" and individual states have different versions of what's going on with this enforcement. According to some posted states "guidelines" in extra periods the penalty can carry over.  I don't believe that we can make a blanket statement regarding the original post and as ncwingman noted how this is handled should be reviewed at the state level to confirm what extra periods rules are being used.

Well, when the OP states "or have the penalty enforced on the opponent's first possession." it's hard not to assume the suggested overtime procedure in the book...

[VALJ]

RefMag is notorious for incorrect Case Play rulings.  I’ve never figured that out, since they’re not especially time-sensitive, and the authors & editors should have plenty of opportunities to pass them around for vetting.

It’s the main reason I stopped subscribing.

[Ralphie Wiggum voice] Referee Magazine be incorrect?  That’s un-possible!  [/Ralphie Wiggum voice]

[NVFOA_Ump]

Well, when the OP states "or have the penalty enforced on the opponent's first possession." it's hard not to assume the suggested overtime procedure in the book...

I really dislike the idea of "assuming" anything.

[CalhounLJ]

I really dislike the idea of "assuming" anything.

Me too, but the plain reading of the text supports the idea: "Ruling 3: Team A can opt to have the penalty enforced before the try or have the penalty enforced on the opponent's first possession.  If the later option is chosen, team B would start its series at the opponent's 25 yard line."

I'm not completely certain, but I highly doubt there is an overtime scenario out there where Team B would kickoff from their opponent's 10. Which would have to be the case for Ruling 3 to work with a kickoff. However, it would make sense with the suggested overtime procedure in the book. If team B normally would start on the 10, a personal foul marked off from there would naturally put the ball at the 25.

But still, it's a moot point, because the only options for a penalty by B on a touchdown scoring play is try or subsequent kickoff.

[Ralph Damren]

The results of the all-important PAT ,as time expires, will decide if there is to be an overtime. Souldn't be a debate, just tack 'er on.

[NVFOA_Ump]

The results of the all-important PAT ,as time expires, will decide if there is to be an overtime. Souldn't be a debate, just tack 'er on.

Except in the case play here we are already in overtime. oul during a touchdown during the fi

[Ralph Damren]

Except in the case play here we are already in overtime. oul during a touchdown during the fi

A bridge foul from one OT to the next has choices that need to be fully explained to the offended coach. Example :

(1) Warf Rats win coin toss and choose to go D.
(2) 1st OT ends with Warf Rat's Bubba yelling, "REF'S A 'SPUD CHUCKER' !" (Potato thrower= slang in Maine) = USC.
(3) Cow Dung coach now can choose to either:
    a. Go on offense from the 5, or;
    b. Send the Walf Rats to start from the 25.

NOT NEEDED TO KNOW FACT:

Prior to this year, Maine's top crops were : (1) potatoes , (2) blueberries.

This year, Maine's top crops are : (1) MARIJUANA , (2)  potatoes, (3) blueberries........GO FIGURE 

[mhez141]

Learn something everyday...never seen a Maine potato in the grocery store only Idaho in Oklahoma
Prior year 1. Meth 2. Wheat 3. Cotton
This Year 1. Marijuana 2. Meth 3. Wheat 4. Cotton
Everyone have a great and safe game this week.  Hopefully fans will leave their guns at home or in their pockets.

[NVFOA_Ump]

Prior to this year, Maine's top crops were : (1) potatoes , (2) blueberries.
This year, Maine's top crops are : (1) MARIJUANA , (2)  potatoes, (3) blueberries........GO FIGURE 

That's a lot of money up in smoke! 

[bossman72]

Here's a chart I made to help.  Make sure you are on the NFHS tab.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xcoPfzCkGIx2s-vFTpwPsCcZ2GEQCWHuNnAQMZTIFcA/edit?usp=drive_link