when does illegal participitation become illegal

[NNDman]

Friday night I saw the defense get tagged for this twice in the 2nd half after the offense broke the huddle and headed for the LOS. Then I saw the offense break the huddle with 12 with the 12th player run off to the sideline with no infraction being called. Were all these correct?

[GA Umpire]

Friday night I saw the defense get tagged for this twice in the 2nd half after the offense broke the huddle and headed for the LOS. Then I saw the offense break the huddle with 12 with the 12th player run off to the sideline with no infraction being called. Were all these correct?

It appears you are describing "Illegal Substitution" instead of Illegal Participation on the defense.
If the defense had 12 in the formation and no one was trying to go out of the game, the call is correct for Illegal Substitution.

If the 12th player in the huddle started to leave within 3 seconds after his substitute came to the huddle and went directly to the team box as you described, it is a  correct "no-call".

3-7-1; 

[HLinNC]

There is no "dey broke duh huddle wif tway-ulv" in NFHS rules (Southern Appalachianese).  Coaches will holler that out on occasion as most gain their FB rules knowledge from watching TV on Saturday and Sunday.

[Ralph Damren]

If ye count 12 prior to the snap always shut 'er down. A 5 yard dead ball foul has much less impact on the game then a 15 yd. live ball foul. If you counted wrong..no harm, no foul.. as you may have counted big ole' Bubba twice . Remember, if a sub enters DURING the down, it is a succeeding spot foul.. IF he just watches .

[refjeff]

If ye count 12 prior to the snap always shut 'er down. A 5 yard dead ball foul has much less impact on the game then a 15 yd. live ball foul. If you counted wrong..no harm, no foul.. as you may have counted big ole' Bubba twice . Remember, if a sub enters DURING the down, it is a succeeding spot foul.. IF he just watches .

  Two weeks ago in a first round playoff game I did exactly that, twice.  The first play the visitors lined up on offense I thought "That's a lot."  I counted 12.  Counted 12 again and blew the whistle just as the ball was snapped.   "Coach there's 12 on the field."  My HL and U, "Uhh, there's only 11."

I had four unbalanced and a wing to the left.  A center and two more to the right. A QB under center and three running backs.  Twice I counted.

[Ralph Damren]

Thanks ,refjef, for sharing. We've probably all miscounted before, but shutting it down for a recount is much safer and has much less impact on the game  than flagging it during the play and trying for a recount after it's over. Trying to count 11 as players leave and subs come onto the field is sorta' like hurding cats (we have three)  .

[NNDman]

I posted this because in the game I referenced the defense was flagged for having 12 on the field right after the offense broke its huddle and approached the LOS. But, when the offense had 12 when it broke it huddle its 12th player was allowed to leave the field under not penalty. I'm guessing both were administered properly.

[CalhounLJ]

I posted this because in the game I referenced the defense was flagged for having 12 on the field right after the offense broke its huddle and approached the LOS. But, when the offense had 12 when it broke it huddle its 12th player was allowed to leave the field under not penalty. I'm guessing both were administered properly.

It’s a timing issue in high school. Simply breaking the huddle with 12 is not a foul in and of itself. The question is how long was the 12th player in the huddle? The rules give a replaced player 3 seconds to begin to leave the field. If in your judgment the player begins to leave the field within 3 seconds after being replaced, it’s not a foul.


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[Ralph Damren]

Prior to 2010, a replaced player needed to leave at once. This required the replaced player to be a mind-reader. I've seen mind-readers at the Bangor Fair, but never on a football field. We felt that three seconds gave the player time to process that he was being replaced and act properly. If he wasn't trying to confuse the opponents by his confusion, I might give him four seconds.

[KWH]

Prior to 2010, a replaced player needed to leave at once. This required the replaced player to be a mind-reader. I've seen mind-readers at the Bangor Fair, but never on a football field. We felt that three seconds gave the player time to process that he was being replaced and act properly. If he wasn't trying to confuse the opponents by his confusion, I might give him four seconds.

Also, Let me add to Ralphs comment:
2-32-12 tells us: A replaced player is one who has been notified by a substitute that he is to leave the field.

Interpretation: If Lard BUTT neglects to tell Big ole Bubba that he is replacing him, and, neither player realizes it until they are both attempting to fit two large body's into the the left guard position (which is only sized to accommodate one large body) I have: No Harm - No Foul

[yarnnelg]

Beware of your partners on the field. District game. I count twelve, counted again, twelve. Flagged. We gathered together as we came together I counted again eleven ...Could not figure out where twelve had come from. We called the Head Linesman ...he said "Nope eleven all along" Picked up the flag ....My coach on my sideline two plays later tells me  ...you guys missed our punt return man that went out and was behind your Back Judge. You were right ." "I got out voted."

Halftime ....Head Linesman says "I didn't count, you lost at rock paper scissors."

White Hat lost his sense of humor. I had to say something ...."Proof positive that replay officials in the ACC are not the brightest in the stadium."