Illegal touching of a kick making penalty enforcement possible

[#92]

I noticed something I can't wrap my head around...

Five- and 10-yard penalties are not enforced on the try or the succeeding kickoff. Such penalties are declined by rule unless enforcement is made possible by illegal touching of a kick during the down (A.R. 6-3-2-III-IV).

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Team A’s punt goes beyond the neutral zone and is first touched by A80, then picked up by B40, who runs five yards and fumbles. B70 holds during B40’s run. A20 picks up the fumble and scores.
RULING: The score does not count. Five- and 10-yard penalties are not administered on the try or the succeeding kickoff. Because the illegal touching provides an enforcement spot, the penalty for Team B’s foul may be enforced, per Rule 5-2-4. The ball belongs to Team B, either at the spot of illegal touching if Team A declines the penalty, or at the spot after the enforcement if Team A accepts the penalty (Rules 10-2-2 and 10-2-5-a-2).

What enforcement spot does this illegal touching provide then?

Possible enforcement spots are: the previous spot, the spot of the foul, the succeeding spot, the spot where the run ends, and—for scrimmage kicks only—the postscrimmage kick spot.

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The postscrimmage kick spot serves as the basic spot when postscrimmage kick enforcement applies (Rule 10-2-3).
a. When the kick ends in the field of play, other than in the special cases given below, the postscrimmage kick spot is the spot where the kick ends.
b. When the kick ends in Team B’s end zone, the postscrimmage kick spot is Team B’s 20-yard line.
Special cases:
1. On an unsuccessful field goal attempt, if the ball is untouched by Team B after crossing the neutral zone and is declared dead beyond the neutral zone, the postscrimmage kick spot is:
(a) The previous spot, if the previous spot is on or outside Team B’s 20-yard line; (A.R. 10-2-3-V)
(b) Team B’s 20-yard line, if the previous spot is between Team B’s 20-yard line and its goal line.
2. When Rule 6-3-11 is in effect, the postscrimmage kick spot is Team B’s 20-yard line.
3. When Rule 6-5-1-b is in effect, the postscrimmage kick spot is the spot where the receiver first touched the kick.

There's no mentoining of the illegal touching spot?

In fact, I thought illegal touching was irrelevant as soon as a live ball foul was accepted or there were offsetting fouls?

If there is an accepted penalty for a live-ball foul by either team, or if there are offsetting fouls, the illegal touching privilege is canceled (A.R. 6-1-3-I).

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b. This privilege is canceled if there is an accepted penalty for a live-ball foul by either team (A.R. 6-3-2-I-IV, A.R. 6-3-11-I-III and A.R. 10-1-4-VII).
c. The privilege is canceled if there are offsetting fouls.
d. Illegal touching on a try, in extra periods, or in Team A’s end zone is ignored.

Thanks in advance for helping me understand this!

[ElvisLives]

It is a tough concept to grasp, especially with the rule and AR language provided.  Let me see if I can get to the bottom line.

First, when a TD is scored, all 5 and 10-yard penalties by the non-scoring team are declined, by rule.  So, when B's holding penalty is declined (by rule), there are no 'accepted' penalties to cancel B's illegal touching privilege (to take the ball at any spot of A's illegal touching).  Obviously, B would always accept that privilege, to prevent A's score.  But, in that case, many folks claim that Team B gets an unfair advantage over Team A by 1) getting to cancel A's score, 2) getting to keep the ball, and 3) receiving no punishment for the holding foul.  So, to rectify that, an 'exception' of sorts was put in the rules, for these cases.  No Team A does not get to score.  No, Team A does not get the ball.  But, Team B doesn't go unpunished for the holding foul.  Using the end of the related run as the Basic Spot, Team B's holding foul is then penalized from the appropriate spot, and B takes over from there.  If the spot of the illegal touching is more advantageous to Team A, then they can decline the penalty, and let B have the ball at the spot of the illegal touching.  (Added after I first posted this message.)
So, Team B's penalty is at first declined (by rule), but then accepted (or declined) later.  Make sense?  No, but most think it is fair.

Me, personally - I think that's what Team A gets for illegally touching the ball.  If they don't commit the illegal touching violation, then they get the score.  Stay away from the ball until it is touched by B.  Very simple.

Robert

[Kalle]

Possibly add to your headache:

4/10 at A-30. Team A punts. The kicked ball hits ground at B-30, bounces and hits A88 on the leg at B-31. B32 recovers the ball at B-29 and runs to B-35, where he fumbles. A55 recovers the fumble and runs for an apparent touchdown. During A55's run B32 holds A88 to allow B91 to better pursue A55.

Here rule 10-2-5-1-b does not kick in (there is no valid end of the related run where the holding penalty could be enforced from). The penalty is declined by rule. Team B will elect to take the ball at the spot of the illegal touching. 1/10 for team B at B-31.

If A55 takes a knee at B-1, it will be A's ball, 1/G at B-0.5...

[#92]

Aha. I think I get the idea behind it. So if I understand correctly:

On a down in which there is a kick and which results in a TD for Team A and in which there was a foul by Team B, there are 4 possibilities:

• Team A did not illegaly touch the kick => penalty is declined by rule => TD for Team A.
• Team A did illegaly touch the kick, but Team B did only foul during the last run => penalty is declined by rule => TD for Team A.
• Team A did illegaly touch the kick, but Team B fouled before the last run => TD is cancelled and Team A chooses to have the penalty enforced.
• Team A did illegaly touch the kick, but Team B fouled before the last run => TD is cancelled and Team A chooses to decline the penalty and let Team B have the ball at the most advantagous point of illegal touching.

Correct?

However, this doesn't seem supported by any Rules, other than the A.R.'s, or is it? Not that I'm doubting you, just want to dot the i's and cross the t's.

[Kalle]

Your case #2 is incorrect. The penalty is declined by rule so team B will take the ball at the spot of the illegal touching.

IMO this is entirely supported by the rules.

1. 6-3-2-a gives team B the privilege of taking the ball at the illegal touching spot instead of the result of the play.

2. 6-3-2-b states that an accepted penalty wipes out the illegal touching privilege.

3. 10-2-5-a-2 states that all 5- and 10-yard penalties by the opponents of the scoring team are declined by rule except if it is possible to enforce them due to an illegal touching during the down.

4. It is not possible to enforce a 5- or 10-yard basic spot penalty by the defense during the run that results in an apparent touchdown.

Thus, we can easily rule on situations such as this:

4/4 at A-30. B90 is offside at the snap. A12 punts legally and the ball first touches A55 at B-30. B32 recovers the ball at B-31 and runs to B-35 where he fumbles. A55 recovers the fumble and runs for an apparent touchdown.

Rule 10-2-5-a-2 says that the offside penalty would be declined by rule. But, as there is an illegal touching involved, team A now has a choice. They can give the ball to team B at B-30 or have a 1st down at A-35.

If there was no illegal touching team A would not have an option (not that I can think of a play situation where they would like to accept the penalty from the previous spot - maybe some weird one-point lead with a poor place kicker and time running out), the touchdown would stand and the penalty declined by rule.

[#92]

So the ruling of A.R. 6-3-2-IV (see below) is either (Team A can choose between):

• B: 1/10, at the spot where A80 touched the ball (which isn't specified)
• B: 1/10, 10 yards behind the spot of B70's foul (which isn't specified) or 10 yards behind the end of B40's run (which isn't specified), whichever is closest to Team B's goal line

Right?

Team A’s punt goes beyond the neutral zone and is first touched by A80, then picked up by B40, who runs five yards and fumbles. B70 holds during B40’s run. A20 picks up the fumble and scores.
RULING: The score does not count. Five- and 10-yard penalties are not administered on the try or the succeeding kickoff. Because the illegal touching provides an enforcement spot, the penalty for Team B’s foul may be enforced, per Rule 5-2-4. The ball belongs to Team B, either at the spot of illegal touching if Team A declines the penalty, or at the spot after the enforcement if Team A accepts the penalty (Rules 10-2-2 and 10-2-5-a-2).

[Kalle]

Right?

Yes, holding is a basic spot foul.

[#92]

Yes, holding is a basic spot foul.

I actually really wanted to make sure I have it correct the spot of illegal touching is never an enforcement spot...?

[Kalle]

I actually really wanted to make sure I have it correct the spot of illegal touching is never an enforcement spot...?

Nowadays this is correct, as one exception was removed two (?) years ago.

[ChicagoZebra]

I actually really wanted to make sure I have it correct the spot of illegal touching is never an enforcement spot...?

There is one instance where the illegal touching spot does become the enforcement spot...

When K bats a scrimmage kick backwards in the endzone, it is not a foul for illegal batting, but rather an illegal touching with a "legal fiction" that the illegal touching occured at the 20 yard line. For PSK fouls only, the illegal touching spot at the 20 yard line DOES become the enforcement spot. Note that this is only for PSK fouls, so fouls by K cannot be enforced from the illegal touching spot (the 20 yard line).

[bossman72]

Aha. I think I get the idea behind it. So if I understand correctly:

On a down in which there is a kick and which results in a TD for Team A and in which there was a foul by Team B, there are 4 possibilities:

• Team A did not illegaly touch the kick => penalty is declined by rule => TD for Team A.
• Team A did illegaly touch the kick, but Team B did only foul during the last run => penalty is declined by rule => TD for Team A.
• Team A did illegaly touch the kick, but Team B fouled before the last run => TD is cancelled and Team A chooses to have the penalty enforced.
• Team A did illegaly touch the kick, but Team B fouled before the last run => TD is cancelled and Team A chooses to decline the penalty and let Team B have the ball at the most advantagous point of illegal touching.

Correct?

However, this doesn't seem supported by any Rules, other than the A.R.'s, or is it? Not that I'm doubting you, just want to dot the i's and cross the t's.

Your break down is correct.

[ElvisLives]

Your break down is correct.

As Kalle pointed out, Item 2 is incorrect, because, if Team A commits illegal touching, and B's foul(s) is/are not 15 yard penalties, the penalty/penalties is/are declined by rule (A has no choice).  Since there is no accepted penalty to cancel the illegal touching privilege, B will invoke the illegal touching privilege, which will cancel A's score, and B will get the ball at the spot of illegal touching.

Robert

[bossman72]

As Kalle pointed out, Item 2 is incorrect, because, if Team A commits illegal touching, and B's foul(s) is/are not 15 yard penalties, the penalty/penalties is/are declined by rule (A has no choice).  Since there is no accepted penalty to cancel the illegal touching privilege, B will invoke the illegal touching privilege, which will cancel A's score, and B will get the ball at the spot of illegal touching.

Robert

Yeah I read that too quick.  Team B gets the ball at ITK spot.

[#92]

Another play, to get this straight:

Team A 1/10 A-40. A5 punts from A-30. A13 is the first player to touch the ball at B-45. B92 picks up the ball, runs to A-45 and fumbles. A20 picks up the ball at A-44 and runs to B-30 and fumbles. A14 picks up the ball at the B-29 and runs across B's goal line. B92 held A13 at B-35 during A20's run.

What's the ruling? I suppose the score is negated. But does Team A then get the choice whether to enforce the penalty or not? Because then of course they elect to do so, and it's Team A 1/10 B-20.
Or does Team A not have a choice because the foul was not while Team B was in possession?

[Kalle]

Another play, to get this straight:

Team A 1/10 A-40. A5 punts from A-30. A13 is the first player to touch the ball at B-45. B92 picks up the ball, runs to A-45 and fumbles. A20 picks up the ball at A-44 and runs to B-30 and fumbles. A14 picks up the ball at the B-29 and runs across B's goal line. B92 held A13 at B-35 during A20's run.

What's the ruling? I suppose the score is negated. But does Team A then get the choice whether to enforce the penalty or not? Because then of course they elect to do so, and it's Team A 1/10 B-20.
Or does Team A not have a choice because the foul was not while Team B was in possession?

In this case we do have a valid enforcement spot (end of the related run), which is at B-30, so we can enforce the 10-yard penalty. 1/10 for team A at B-20.