Author Topic: Motion and getting set (Read 6298 times)

Derek Teigen · « **on:** October 10, 2019, 02:26:45 PM »

on film I am seeing a team that uses a single wideout, who was set for 1 second, and who goes in motion setting up as a tight end. I saw on film where the play began as soon as the man in motion set himself...there was no 1 second delay. Is this illegal motion?

GA Umpire · « **Reply #1 on:** October 10, 2019, 02:32:23 PM »

Quote from: Derek Teigen on October 10, 2019, 02:26:45 PM

on film I am seeing a team that uses a single wideout, who was set for 1 second, and who goes in motion setting up as a tight end. I saw on film where the play began as soon as the man in motion set himself...there was no 1 second delay. Is this illegal motion?

Judgement of the covering official.

Derek Teigen · « **Reply #2 on:** October 10, 2019, 02:35:10 PM »

i am wondering if I am confusing the need for him to be set for 1 second before or if another man is in motion?

markrischard · « **Reply #3 on:** October 10, 2019, 02:38:14 PM »

It would be an illegal shift, actually.

Derek Teigen · « **Reply #4 on:** October 10, 2019, 02:55:46 PM »

yes illegal shift. I don't think the lone player in motion would need to reset for 1 second before the snap but if 2 are in motion each would need to be set for 1 second or one be set before the other goes into motion before the snap. I was confused as he was setting himself but then I am thinking he could have just continued in motion at the snap so it doesn't matter if he was set for 1 second or not.

CalhounLJ · « **Reply #5 on:** October 10, 2019, 03:02:39 PM »

This is another one sure to draw a crowd of opinions. If he sets, he must be set for one second before the snap or it’s a foul. I know, the time frame is small, but it’s there. Now go ahead everybody jump in.

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Derek Teigen · « **Reply #6 on:** October 10, 2019, 03:27:56 PM »

reading rulebook Rule 7-2 article 6. ".......all players shall remain stationary for at least one second before the snap" In my example ALL PLAYERS WERE STATIONARY FOR 1 FULL SECOND.

Then the one player went into motion and reset himself as a tight-end....does he need to reset again for 1 full second before the snap?

I think not because the entire team had been set for one full second....

CalhounLJ · « **Reply #7 on:** October 10, 2019, 03:34:04 PM »

. That's the rub. We went round and round on this several months ago. Let me give you a situation - Lets say A breaks the huddle, comes to the line, all 11 players get set. Then, 10 of those 11 players move to another position. Do they all have to be set for the 1 second immediately prior to the snap? Or did the fact that they had been set for one second absolve them from that restriction?

Same way with one player. One player can move, and can be moving at the snap, but if he comes set again, he must remain set for the 1 second immediately prior to the snap.

Derek Teigen · « **Reply #8 on:** October 10, 2019, 04:06:20 PM »

thats if 2 or more are in motion because 1 player may be in motion at the snap.

CalhounLJ · « **Reply #9 on:** October 10, 2019, 04:43:03 PM »

I agree. But if that one player stops he must have been stopped for at least one second immediately prior to the snap

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CalhounLJ · « **Reply #10 on:** October 10, 2019, 04:50:14 PM »

Another example: A comes to the line, everybody gets set. A81 goes in motion from one side of the formation to the other. When he gets to the other side he stops. Just as soon as he stops the ball is snapped. Flag for illegal shift because he was not set for the one full second immediately prior to the snap.

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CalhounLJ · « **Reply #11 on:** October 10, 2019, 04:58:35 PM »

Quote from: Derek Teigen on October 10, 2019, 02:55:46 PM

yes illegal shift. I don't think the lone player in motion would need to reset for 1 second before the snap but if 2 are in motion each would need to be set for 1 second or one be set before the other goes into motion before the snap. I was confused as he was setting himself but then I am thinking he could have just continued in motion at the snap so it doesn't matter if he was set for 1 second or not.

Just because he was not set for one second before the snap doesn’t mean he was still in motion. That may be the issue you are talking about?

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InsideTheStripes · « **Reply #12 on:** October 10, 2019, 08:13:41 PM »

Don't go fishing for illegal shifts...

Magician · « **Reply #13 on:** October 10, 2019, 08:58:42 PM »

Quote from: CalhounLJ on October 10, 2019, 04:43:03 PM

I agree. But if that one player stops he must have been stopped for at least one second immediately prior to the snap

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If you want to be REALLY technical sure. But I wouldn't get that technical. If he can be in motion at the snap he's fine stopping for less than a second. That is not the intent of the illegal shift foul. If two guys were moving at once then they both have to be set for a second. And even then I wouldn't get too technical if there is a discernible time between the shift and the start of motion.

bossman72 · « **Reply #14 on:** October 10, 2019, 10:20:37 PM »

The 1 second rule is not enforced literally "one-thousand-one". If the whole formation sets momentarily before the snap, let it go.

NVFOA_Ump · « **Reply #15 on:** October 11, 2019, 05:36:25 AM »

Quote from: InsideTheStripes on October 10, 2019, 08:13:41 PM

Don't go fishing for illegal shifts...

This has to be an illegal shift. In the OP the flanker back goes in motion legally and then comes in and onto the line as a TE. To become a TE from flanker back he must be set for 1 second immediately prior to the snap. Also, I don't know why we're even mentioning the "when do all 11 players have to be set for 1 second?". The rule and plenty of official guidance is IMHO pretty clear when it's in regards to a lineman, and when he takes a position as a TE he's a lineman - he's got to be set for a second. If he remains in the backfield then he's got significantly more leeway as long as he's not moving forward at the snap.

CalhounLJ · « **Reply #16 on:** October 11, 2019, 07:55:51 AM »

Quote from: Magician on October 10, 2019, 08:58:42 PM

If you want to be REALLY technical sure. But I wouldn't get that technical. If he can be in motion at the snap he's fine stopping for less than a second. That is not the intent of the illegal shift foul. If two guys were moving at once then they both have to be set for a second. And even then I wouldn't get too technical if there is a discernible time between the shift and the start of motion.

Rules discussions on message boards are by nature technical. I get the fact that you look for every opportunity to not throw a flag, but in the context of this discussion, a player who is not set for one second immediately before the snap is guilty of illegal shift if he’s not legally in motion.

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Stinterp · « **Reply #17 on:** October 11, 2019, 08:25:59 AM »

+1, no foul as long as all 11 were set for 1 second prior to the man going in motion. The man in motion does not need to reset again for 1 second, he's allowed to be "in motion" at the snap.
Don't look for this as a foul.

Magician · « **Reply #18 on:** October 11, 2019, 08:49:41 AM »

Quote from: NVFOA_Ump on October 11, 2019, 05:36:25 AM

This has to be an illegal shift. In the OP the flanker back goes in motion legally and then comes in and onto the line as a TE. To become a TE from flanker back he must be set for 1 second immediately prior to the snap. Also, I don't know why we're even mentioning the "when do all 11 players have to be set for 1 second?". The rule and plenty of official guidance is IMHO pretty clear when it's in regards to a lineman, and when he takes a position as a TE he's a lineman - he's got to be set for a second. If he remains in the backfield then he's got significantly more leeway as long as he's not moving forward at the snap.

You just changed the scenario. If someone is shifting into a lineman position then he absolutely needs to be set for 1 second because he can't be in motion at the snap. Especially if he started on the other end of the line. He can't be in motion at the snap. If someone shifts from a back to a line position he also needs to be set for 1 second prior to the snap. But a back to a back isn't as secure.

Magician · « **Reply #19 on:** October 11, 2019, 08:56:16 AM »

Quote from: CalhounLJ on October 11, 2019, 07:55:51 AM

Rules discussions on message boards are by nature technical. I get the fact that you look for every opportunity to not throw a flag, but in the context of this discussion, a player who is not set for one second immediately before the snap is guilty of illegal shift if he’s not legally in motion.

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If you aren't talking philosophy with literal rules you are missing the most critical part of rules knowledge and study. It's fine to reference the technical rule but also help teach the intent and philosophy behind the rule. Otherwise we are failing new officials miserably.

HLinNC · « **Reply #20 on:** October 11, 2019, 09:07:38 AM »

Depending on the newness of the newbie, its probably best to stick to technical. Philosophy can vary from state, association, or crew. Grasping the actual rule is vital to a new official. Nuance can come later.

CalhounLJ · « **Reply #21 on:** October 11, 2019, 09:43:27 AM »

Quote from: HLinNC on October 11, 2019, 09:07:38 AM

Depending on the newness of the newbie, its probably best to stick to technical. Philosophy can vary from state, association, or crew. Grasping the actual rule is vital to a new official. Nuance can come later.

Retweet. I would also add that because of the lack of a standard to go by regarding philosophy, the application of such will vary from place to place. I realize this is not true in NCAA, but this is a high school discussion. There is absolutely no way to cover all the bases with regard to the different approaches. Just because one group is sure they have it right, the next group may see it a different way.

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bawags06 · « **Reply #22 on:** October 11, 2019, 11:32:32 AM »

So I didn't see this mentioned.... I realize that we have all 11 set, then one guy goes in motion. If he stays in motion fine. If he stops, however, his next action is what matters, in my opinion. If he stops with his shoulders perpendicular to the LOS, I'm saying he is still in motion, even though he is stopped. If he turns his shoulders to get set, don't most players get set by moving/leaning toward the LOS? If he is still getting set (moving forward) when the snap goes, you've got illegal motion. Though I'm likely talking to the offense before throwing this because of advantage/disadvantage.

NVFOA_Ump · « **Reply #23 on:** October 11, 2019, 11:41:27 AM »

Quote from: Magician on October 11, 2019, 08:49:41 AM

You just changed the scenario. If someone is shifting into a lineman position then he absolutely needs to be set for 1 second because he can't be in motion at the snap. Especially if he started on the other end of the line. He can't be in motion at the snap. If someone shifts from a back to a line position he also needs to be set for 1 second prior to the snap. But a back to a back isn't as secure.

No change in the scenario. The OP for this thread has a flanker back going in motion and resetting as a tight end. He's now a lineman. That requires a new 1 second set prior to the snap.

NVFOA_Ump · « **Reply #24 on:** October 11, 2019, 11:42:39 AM »

Quote from: Stinterp on October 11, 2019, 08:25:59 AM

+1, no foul as long as all 11 were set for 1 second prior to the man going in motion. The man in motion does not need to reset again for 1 second, he's allowed to be "in motion" at the snap.
Don't look for this as a foul.

This is not correct. He's no longer the man in motion if he resets as the tight end.