Force

[ohguy]

Determining force.
Snap goes over K1's head, at the 10, R muffs the ball, as it is rolling towards K's EZ, and the ball rolls out of the EZ. The questions is...would the errant snap of gone out of the EZ by its self or did R's muff cause it to?
I understand the question "how did the ball get there"... but how does one determine how far that ball would of  rolled without the muff?
Without R's muff and the ball rolls out = Safety
With R's muff = TB. R gets the ball at the ??
What if the punt was blocked...what does that add to the equation if R muffs it out?

[Ralph Damren]

Welcome to the forum,Ohguy, may you find it both interesting and informative. If the bouncing bad snap is bouncing toward K's goal line and R muffs it into and out of the end zone, you have to decide if the ball would have made it there without R's help. When in doubt, rule that it would have = safety. If the ball is at rest or bouncing away from K's goal, it becomes a touchback.

[ohguy]

Thanks for the welcome.
So, if the ball is at rest, K gets the back back at the 20? Seems like a nice reward for an errant snap on 4th down.
How does one determine if R's muff added anything?

[maven]

The question is never what forces the ball OUT of the EZ, but always what forces it IN, that is, over the GL. So the question to ask is not quite "how did the ball get there," but rather, "who forced the ball across the GL?"

So, in your first scenario, we'd need to know where R muffed the ball: if it was already in the EZ, then clearly the bad snap by K forced the ball into the EZ, and you'd have a safety. If R muffed the ball in the field of play, then the R would have to rule on whether R imparted a new force that put the ball in the EZ. If so, then it's a TB when the ball becomes dead there; if not, then, again, it's a safety.

You might review 8-5-2 and 3 regarding safeties and touchbacks.

This is a pure judgment call by the R. Footballs bounce funny, so you just have to make your best judgment about which team forced the ball across the GL.

You asked about the TB: barring a penalty, it's always 1/10 after a touchback. The team is awarded a new series per 5-1-1.

Last question: a blocked punt is still a kick, and so if a kick goes into K's own EZ, K is responsible for forcing it in.

[maven]

Thanks for the welcome.
So, if the ball is at rest, K gets the back back at the 20? Seems like a nice reward for an errant snap on 4th down.
How does one determine if R's muff added anything?

The ball is unlikely to be at rest: it's a fumble, and someone will jump on it. If R possesses a live ball in K's EZ, that's a touchdown, so they're not likely to let it lie there.

If it does become dead because nobody is trying to recover it, then it's either a TB or a safety, depending on whether R or K put the ball across the GL.

Best not to think of it as a reward: if K puts the ball in the EZ and it becomes dead there, 2 of the 3 possible outcomes involve R scoring.

[ohguy]

But, K could get the ball back on their 20 if R muffs it out of the EZ...yes?

[maven]

But, K could get the ball back on their 20 if R muffs it out of the EZ...yes?

Again, the question is never who muffs it OUT, but rather who muffs it IN.

If the ball is loose in the field of play, R imparts a new force that puts the ball across the GL, and it becomes dead there, then the result is a TB. 8-5-3

[ohguy]

Maven, sorry to be a dunce. OK. r muffs it into the EZ and it rolls out of the EZ = TB. K get the ball on their 20. Yes?

[maven]

Maven, sorry to be a dunce. OK. r muffs it into the EZ and it rolls out of the EZ = TB. K get the ball on their 20. Yes?

In my first post:
"You asked about the TB: barring a penalty, it's always 1/10 after a touchback. The team is awarded a new series per 5-1-1."

Yes, at the K20. Clock on the snap.

And don't worry about being a "dunce," but do stick your nose in the book.

[ohguy]

Ok..now can you explain the philosophy behind why its a TB? I agree sometimes I get to deep into asking why about stuff but I get that a rule is a rule etc.

K is punting, admitting they cant move the ball and giving it up. They cant even get the snap right, snapping it over the head of the punter and r, trying to secure possession and possibly a TD, errantly muffs it from the field of play into and out of the EZ and K gets the ball back. To me, something is wrong with that. 
I believe its true that  if R and K had both been going for the ball and simultaneously both have possession in the EZ its a TD for R, yet because R cant recover it and it goes out of the EZ, K gets a new series. Hmmmm.

[maven]

R put the ball into the EZ, where it became dead. That prevented K from having the opportunity to move it or kick it. So they get the ball back.

[ECILLJ]

8.ART. 3 . . . It is a touchback when:
a. Any free kick or scrimmage kick:
1. Which is not a scoring attempt or which is a grounded three-point fieldgoal
attempt, breaks the plane of R’s goal line unless R chooses a spot
of first touching by K.
2. Which is a three-point field-goal attempt, in flight touches a K player in
R’s end zone, or after breaking the plane of R’s goal line is unsuccessful.
b. Any scrimmage kick or free kick becomes dead on or behind K’s goal line
with the ball in possession of K (including when the ball is declared dead
with no player in possession) and the new force is R’s muff or bat of the
kick after it has touched the ground.
c. A fumble is the force, or a muff or bat of a backward pass or a fumble after
either has touched the ground is the new force, which sends the ball to or
across the opponent’s goal line and provided such opponent is in team possession
or the ball is out of bounds when it becomes dead on or behind its
goal line.
d. A forward pass is intercepted in B’s end zone and becomes dead there in
B’s possession.

[bama_stripes]

K is punting, admitting they cant move the ball and giving it up. They cant even get the snap right, snapping it over the head of the punter and r, trying to secure possession and possibly a TD, errantly muffs it from the field of play into and out of the EZ and K gets the ball back. To me, something is wrong with that. 

There's also "something wrong" with a player not being able to pick up a loose ball from the ground, or fall on it without it squirting away from him.

Life ain't always fair.

[Curious]

There's also "something wrong" with a player not being able to pick up a loose ball from the ground, or fall on it without it squirting away from him.

Life ain't always fair.

"Bama at his best!

[ohguy]

Appreciate the info!
Thanks