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Offline Mad Mike

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Punt Situation
« on: October 06, 2013, 05:26:23 PM »
What is the rule that notes touching of a scrimmage kick behind the LOS is ignored?

SITUATION: 4th down at the 20 for A. Punt is blocked and lands behind the LOS. B touches the ball, muffs the recovery behind the LOS, A then recovers the ball advances two yards, well short of the Line To Gain. Turnover on downs. We reset the chains, A's coach is livid and thinks his team is getting screwed.

Besides the rule reference, is there any general philosophy you guys use that allows you to remember how to react? Half our crew was ready to give it over to A with a new set of downs. Luckily, we got it right.
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maven

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Punt Situation
« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2013, 06:32:11 PM »
Mike, it's in the section on scrimmage kicks, 6-3 I think. Touching behind the LOS by either team is ignored.

K can recover that kick and advance because it was recovered behind the NZ. Glad you got it right in the end. :)


maven
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Offline Ump33

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Re: Punt Situation
« Reply #2 on: October 06, 2013, 06:34:18 PM »
6-2-3 . . . Any K player may catch or recover a scrimmage kick while it is in or behind the neutral zone and advance, unless it is during a try.
6-2-6 . . . The touching of a low scrimmage kick by any player is ignored if the touching is in or behind the expanded neutral zone. The neutral zone shall not be expanded into the end zone.
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maven

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Re: Punt Situation
« Reply #3 on: October 06, 2013, 06:41:07 PM »
Just coming back to say 6-2-6.

You also want 5-1-3f: A new series is awarded to....

The team in possession at the end of the down, if R is the first to touch a scrimmage kick while it is beyond the expanded neutral zone, unless the penalty is accepted for a non post-scrimmage kick foul which occurred before the kick ended or unless 6-2-7 applies.

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Offline HLinNC

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Re: Punt Situation
« Reply #4 on: October 06, 2013, 06:45:55 PM »
6-2-6 ignores touching of a low scrimmage kick by any player in or behind the ENZ.

Best ways I can think of to remember is "Did the ball go downfield and  R muff it and it came back?" and "This is why the umpire signals the tip"

The only time I can ever remember this play coming into a game of mine was a JV game on a short punt that clanged off R's chest and bounded back behind the NZ where K picked it up and ran.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2013, 06:50:23 PM by HLinNC »
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Offline Rulesman

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Re: Punt Situation
« Reply #5 on: October 06, 2013, 06:49:52 PM »
A kick is a kick until the kick ends. 2-24-2

"...a new series of downs is awarded B, if at the end of fourth down, the ball belongs to A behind the line to gain." 5-1-3c.
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Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: Punt Situation
« Reply #6 on: October 06, 2013, 08:22:19 PM »
6-2-6 has nothing to do with this play.  6-2-6 is in regard to the touching of an airborne kick, as in a block or tip.  But it also doesn't matter.  A is only going to get a new series on the B muff if the touch by B happened BEYOND the NZ. 

The kick was blocked.  That touching is ignored under 6-2-6.  The additional touching by B behind the NZ is nothing.
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Offline prab

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Re: Punt Situation
« Reply #7 on: October 06, 2013, 09:09:52 PM »

"We reset the chains, A's coach is livid and thinks his team is getting screwed."

And in all likelihood, because of Coach A's lack of knowledge of the rules, members of team A, their parents, supporters and many casual observers also feel that A got screwed!

On the other hand, you and your crew who got it right, are blamed for the tear in the space time continuum and will be talked about by this collection of rules challenged people until the end of time.

These are the same people who constitute a "jury of your peers" if the need arises.

Good luck to you and your crew!  A good 12 step program will help you get past this travesty.  (I recommend consulting with a mental health professional such as Dr. Jim Beam or his partner Dr. Jack Daniels.)

Next week you will probably meet a coach who believes in the 5 yard chuck zone and the uncatchable pass!



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Offline HLinNC

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Re: Punt Situation
« Reply #8 on: October 06, 2013, 09:25:44 PM »
Quote
Next week you will probably meet a coach who believes in the 5 yard chuck zone and the uncatchable pass!

Had him Friday night- he wanted "breakin' duh huddle wif tway-ulv" and the 4th down fumble forward rules called.
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Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Punt Situation
« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2013, 01:49:48 PM »
A recovered kick behind the line is just like a fumble (with an exception on joint recovery or ball going OOB), if K gets it ,the line to gain is still intact. If the kick is touched DOWNFIELD by R, whoever then gets the ball also gets a new series. The coach may have seen that happen and got  ??? confused ???.
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Offline Mad Mike

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Re: Punt Situation
« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2013, 02:32:22 PM »
I am certain the coach was confused on the play. In fact, I think many officials would be confused and award the kicking team a new set of downs because a receiver did touch the ball trying to recover the blocked punt; however, the touching by R definitely occurred behind the line of scrimmage and is therefore ignored.

Ralph, I liked your explanation about treating it like a fumble. That might be the best way to explain it to a coach in the heat of the moment when tempers are close to boiling over and a quick and easy to understand explanation needs to be used!
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maven

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Re: Punt Situation
« Reply #11 on: October 07, 2013, 02:58:11 PM »
Quote from: Mad Mike on October 07, 2013, 02:32:22 PM
Ralph, I liked your explanation about treating it like a fumble. That might be the best way to explain it to a coach in the heat of the moment when tempers are close to boiling over and a quick and easy to understand explanation needs to be used!

I'm not so sure, since it's not obvious that a kick and fumble are alike (and the difference about simultaneous recovery is significant).

I'd rather explain it as being similar to a blocked kick: K can recover it behind the NZ and advance, but they don't automatically get a new series.
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Re: Punt Situation
« Reply #12 on: October 08, 2013, 08:46:18 PM »
This is one of those remarkably rare situations where Canadian rules are exactly in line with NFHS rules: it's not a kick until the ball crosses the LOS.  Further, on blocked scrimmage kicks, touching by B behind the LOS does not constitute a COP.
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maven

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Re: Punt Situation
« Reply #13 on: October 09, 2013, 08:57:52 AM »
Quote from: Livin' in the pit on October 08, 2013, 08:46:18 PM
This is one of those remarkably rare situations where Canadian rules are exactly in line with NFHS rules: it's not a kick until the ball crosses the LOS. 

The NFHS rule is that it's a kick once it is intentionally struck with the knee, lower leg, or foot. 2-24-1
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