So many things wrong here

[HLinNC]

sure, drop a bean bag at the spot where possession was gained, and continue to officiate. Then, you can come back to that spot, if needed (although we all need to be better than that).

I imagine that is exactly why the bean bag was dropped in this instance; as a reaction to the thought that this will be a reference point for whichever way this got screwed up so maybe "we" can go back and try to fix it.

In reality there should have been no beanbag and H should have killed it as soon as K picked it up.  Unfortunately, when things go to $#!+, it takes an official a moment to shake out the right result.  I would submit that only a rare few HS officials react 100% correctly in that kind of moment.  I am willing to put myself in that category of not being in that group.

We all talk about how "if its gonna go bad, it will happen on a kick".  You can keep that fact in the back of your mind but it still doesn't stop it from occurring.

There but by grace go we all.

[AlUpstateNY]

I

Put your tools on your belt, know when and how to use your tools, and use the appropriate tool when you need it.

Not only an important tool, but a bean bag can STOP needless arguments (ie, offensive player steps OOB, then returns and participates in play) the bean bag, where he stepped out is evidence the flag, where/if he participated, is valid.  If "O" doesn't participate, no flag-no harm, pick up the bag (afterwards) and play on.  Also marks the spot if the runner steps OOB and play continues down field (despite your TO signal) should you need to follow.

[HLinNC]

 Brian Sakowski has this play and the sequence of plays leading up to it on his PA weekly training tape on YT.  It begins at the 10:00 mark.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U32WlLZSXrA

[NVFOA_Ump]

While I agree that in this play, loose kick beyond the NZ, it's a dead ball when recovered by K but look at the video carefully.  It's on the HL side and the box is BEHIND him.  The bag would simply and importantly mark the spot so that if the HL is "not sure" he can let the play go and recheck later.  Also, if the K player doesn't come up with the ball cleanly and muffs it around R can pick it up and potentially advance the ball or come back and accept the spot of first touching.  IMHO there should be a bag down on virtually all scrimmage kick plays because you really can't fix it later without one.  I see no down side to having the bag at the spot but there's a big one not having it.

[ElvisLives]

While I agree that in this play, loose kick beyond the NZ, it's a dead ball when recovered by K but look at the video carefully.  It's on the HL side and the box is BEHIND him.  The bag would simply and importantly mark the spot so that if the HL is "not sure" he can let the play go and recheck later.  Also, if the K player doesn't come up with the ball cleanly and muffs it around R can pick it up and potentially advance the ball or come back and accept the spot of first touching.  IMHO there should be a bag down on virtually all scrimmage kick plays because you really can't fix it later without one.  I see no down side to having the bag at the spot but there's a big one not having it.

No, in, and of, itself, there is no 'down' side to dropping a bag if you let the play go, even though it should stop. But, there could easily be consequences if we allow a play to continue that should have stopped. Personal fouls, UNS fouls, injuries, etc.
The great Tim Millis taught us that we need to know what we are doing, stay focused, and put our talent and training to work. This would be a case where top level officiating would have the wing official on the NZ until the ball is possessed, to positively rule on the touching/possession, live-ball/dead-ball. There would be no need for a bean bag, because we wouldn't let the play continue, because we would know the ball is dead.
But we do what we must.

[bama_stripes]

Could the above post please be moved to the General Discussion board?

[NVFOA_Ump]

Could the above post please be moved to the General Discussion board?

IMHO it belongs here where we are discussing NFHS mechanics on a scrimmage kick play.

[AlUpstateNY]

While I agree that in this play, loose kick beyond the NZ, it's a dead ball when recovered by K but look at the video carefully.  It's on the HL side and the box is BEHIND him.  The bag would simply and importantly mark the spot so that if the HL is "not sure" he can let the play go and recheck later.  Also, if the K player doesn't come up with the ball cleanly and muffs it around R can pick it up and potentially advance the ball or come back and accept the spot of first touching.  IMHO there should be a bag down on virtually all scrimmage kick plays because you really can't fix it later without one.  I see no down side to having the bag at the spot but there's a big one not having it.

ABSOLUTELY AGREE. "An ounce of prevention, is worth (often WAY more) than a pound of cure". The only harm, that results from picking up a bean bag that was subsequently proven to be "not needed" is a little wasted effort retrieving it, where as not marking a spot that is proven to be needed, can be a DISASTER.

[TxBJ]

While I agree that in this play, loose kick beyond the NZ, it's a dead ball when recovered by K but look at the video carefully.  It's on the HL side and the box is BEHIND him.  The bag would simply and importantly mark the spot so that if the HL is "not sure" he can let the play go and recheck later.  Also, if the K player doesn't come up with the ball cleanly and muffs it around R can pick it up and potentially advance the ball or come back and accept the spot of first touching.  IMHO there should be a bag down on virtually all scrimmage kick plays because you really can't fix it later without one.  I see no down side to having the bag at the spot but there's a big one not having it.

Yes, the box was behind him, but he never should have left the LOS.  Then he would know the ball was beyond and would not have allowed the advance after the recovery.  (I'm making the assumption that that is the NFHS mechanic, for H to stay on the LOS until the ball crosses.)

[NVFOA_Ump]

Yes, the box was behind him, but he never should have left the LOS.  Then he would know the ball was beyond and would not have allowed the advance after the recovery.  (I'm making the assumption that that is the NFHS mechanic, for H to stay on the LOS until the ball crosses.)

Actually, most R's prefer the line judge to "stay" on scrimmage kick plays, so they are looking directly across at the b for the ball crossing. In any case IMHO there is no downside to dorpping a bag when a scrimmage kick is is touched and/or possessed by K.  That can help resolve the question here.

[refjeff]

To me it looks like the ball was past the down box by inches.  Is the HL going to be able to drop his bean bag at the exact spot of the back point of the ball?  Because that is where it is going to have to be to be any help.

[ElvisLives]

To me it looks like the ball was past the down box by inches.  Is the HL going to be able to drop his bean bag at the exact spot of the back point of the ball?  Because that is where it is going to have to be to be any help.

Different philosophies and approaches, I suppose.
After throwing his flag for a DPI, a fellow official questioned Tim Millis if the pass was catchable. Millis' response was something like, "If it wasn't catchable, I wouldn't have thrown my flag." Same thing here. Use your training. Be in the right spot. See what you need to see. Know the rules, and confidently make the appropriate and right ruling.
I try to do things the Tim Millis way. Hasn't led me astray, yet. Give it a try.

[refjeff]

Different philosophies and approaches, I suppose.
After throwing his flag for a DPI, a fellow official questioned Tim Millis if the pass was catchable. Millis' response was something like, "If it wasn't catchable, I wouldn't have thrown my flag." Same thing here. Use your training. Be in the right spot. See what you need to see. Know the rules, and confidently make the appropriate and right ruling.
I try to do things the Tim Millis way. Hasn't led me astray, yet. Give it a try.

I still don't believe that a beanbag in the general location of the ball would have helped on this particular play.

[CalhounLJ]

I still don't believe that a beanbag in the general location of the ball would have helped on this particular play.

Me either. The wing staying put would have solved the issue.


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[AlUpstateNY]

Me either. The wing staying put would have solved the issue.


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The bean bag would have confirmed that the ball had been considered "first touched" (beyond the NZ), ending the play giving the team defending the kick possession at the spot.  If time was determined to have remained at that point, it would be R's ball, at the spot of "First touching", 1st & 10, clock starting on the subsequent snap .

[refjeff]

The bean bag would have confirmed that the ball had been considered "first touched" (beyond the NZ), ending the play giving the team defending the kick possession at the spot.  If time was determined to have remained at that point, it would be R's ball, at the spot of "First touching", 1st & 10, clock starting on the subsequent snap .

If the play is ended he should blow his whistle.

[AlUpstateNY]

If the play is ended he should blow his whistle.

CORRECTION, The presence of the bean bag COULD HAVE could have been extremely helpful in determining WHETHER the subsequent contact by K was, or was not established behind/beyond the NZ in determining whether the play HAD/HAD NOT ended when K touched the blocked kick.  Deploying the bean bag was a prudent action by the wing official to help determine that fact for consideration in the final evaluation of the review of the play.  As suggested, the whistle is a conclusion.

[bama_stripes]

Brian Sakowski has this play and the sequence of plays leading up to it on his PA weekly training tape on YT.  It begins at the 10:00 mark.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U32WlLZSXrA

Brian’s take is that the ball was still in/behind the NZ when recovered, thus the TD stands.  He also advocates for a live-ball Illegal Participation foul for R’s team coming onto the field while the ball is still live.

[dammitbobby]

Even though it seems like an obvious foul, I don't think it would be correct to have a foul for them coming onto the field, given that an official clearly gave a signal indicating that the play was over (the U signaling that the try scrimmage kick was no good.)

[NVFOA_Ump]

Even though it seems like an obvious foul, I don't think it would be correct to have a foul for them coming onto the field, given that an official clearly gave a signal indicating that the play was over (the U signaling that the try was no good.)

This was not a try but a field goal attempt (a scrimmage kick). IMHO a not good signal does not kill the play on a field goal attempt.

[dammitbobby]

While technically you wouldn't be wrong, how would you explain that to a coach who sent his offense immediately on the field after seeing that the U signaled the kick no good, to try to throw a hail Mary pass to win the game?  I just can't see penalizing a team for a mistake the officials made, and it was the basis of action by that team.

[AlUpstateNY]

While technically you wouldn't be wrong, how would you explain that to a coach who sent his offense immediately on the field after seeing that the U signaled the kick no good, to try to throw a hail Mary pass to win the game?  I just can't see penalizing a team for a mistake the officials made, and it was the basis of action by that team.

Like Game Officials, School Coaches are EXPECTED to add mature composure to volatile/emotional situations involving Interscholastic athletic events. Especially in situations that may create unexpected and/or highly emotional instantaneous reactions, Coaches reactions are critical to the maintenance of composure among their charges and opponents.  There is never a valid excuse for any Coach to act irrationally or direct, allow, condone those under his supervision, to act irrationally.

Unfortunately, such circumstances can challenge situations, for both Game Officials and/or Coaches, but BOTH are REQUIRED to maintain composure , as necessary,  to prevent ANY situation from escalating to a point of "Loss of control".

[refjeff]

While technically you wouldn't be wrong, how would you explain that to a coach who sent his offense immediately on the field after seeing that the U signaled the kick no good, to try to throw a hail Mary pass to win the game?  I just can't see penalizing a team for a mistake the officials made, and it was the basis of action by that team.

NO ONE in the stadium was watching the umpire.

[Curious]

Before we even start to talk about this, we should remember: this all happened on 2nd down with about a yard and a half to go! 

It was close, but I see the ball was beyond the Neutral Zone when it was picked up by K after rolling between the LOS and the line to gain; so K could not advance it - and the play should have been blown dead when he possessed it. The K player simply advanced a dead ball.

SO, ASSUMMING TIME COULD STILL BE ON THE CLOCK, WHOSE BALL IS IT (OR SHOULD IT BE)? K's ball 4th down and a half yard to go; or R's ball at the dead ball spot?

Rules 5-1-3g and 5-1-4 speak to this issue: 5-1-3g says: The ball belongs to R at the spot of first touching by K if K is first to touch the kicked ball beyond the Expanded Neutral Zone before it is touched beyond this zone by R and before it has come to rest". 

Rule 5-1-4 says: "Unless touched by R beyond the Neutral Zone, if the kickers recover the scrimmage kick in or behind the neutral zone, the ball remains live and the down counts". In this play, K appears NOT to have recovered the kick in or behind the NZ and R never touched the ball, so K's possession of the kick should have ended the play.

So, since all this happened on 2nd down, and the officials recognized what happened, is it now 3rd down for K/A at the recovery spot; or is the series concluded? Also, since we don't know how much time, if any, still remained on the clock.  The announcers suggested this would be the last play. 

Reddings clarifies this by asking: "...Is the scrimmage kick beyond the Neutral Zone when it is touched? If "yes", which is the case here:
>there is no longer a line to gain (the continuity of downs is broken). Therefore,
>>If untouched by R after the kick crossed the expanded neutral zone (which was not the case) and the ball is declared dead (which it wasn't - is it      R's ball at the dead ball spot or at the spot of first touching by K (which IS where K picked it up and is short of the line to gain)
>>if R is first to touch the kick (which they didin't), team K may catch or recover the kick (but not advance) and retain possession

>The expanded neutral zone extends two yards beyond the defensive LOS in the field of play (where it was when K picked it up) and disintegrates when the kick has crossed the expanded neutral zone; so...

If, as (incorrectly) ruled, the ball was still live after the K player picked it up, all the R players (technically substitutes) being on the field during a live ball would be guilty of Illegal Substitution - as it could be argued that they really never participated in the play. Since Illegal substitution (no participation) is, by rule, a succeeding spot foul (where the K player possessed it), the play would not have resulted in a new series for K; and, since R was ahead as time expired, the game should have been declared over.

It is also not insignificant that the entire Team K bench was out of the team box, but not on the field, nor did they participate, during a live ball. However, Rule 9-8-1k says being out of the Team Box during a live ball is a WARNING for the first offense; therefore no penalty is enforced.

One way or the other, BOTH teams had too many players on the field (Red) or out of the team box (White).  I think all that should "offset"!

[CalhounLJ]

I didn’t even attempt to read all that, but it would be R’s ball where K picked it up. Any flags thrown for players/coaches on the field would be dead ball UNS so no replay. If time is gone, game over. If there’s still time on the clock, deal with the dead ball fouls and play.


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