Author Topic: More "great" Sportsmanship  (Read 21150 times)

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Offline Rulesman

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Re: More "great" Sportsmanship
« Reply #25 on: October 05, 2015, 10:26:25 AM »
TRUE STORY:

Many years ago, a very good friend was the R in a D-II game where the participants decided they wanted to physically engage each other 30 minutes or so prior to the opening kickoff. One flag was dropped and an UNS foul was issued to everyone on both sidelines, players and coaches alike. The fouls offset and the game was played without further incident - not so much as even one "wolf ticket" was sold. His common sense was backed by the Supervisor AND the conference Commissioner.

Like I said earlier, sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.
"Gentlemen, we are going to relentlessly chase perfection, knowing full well we will not catch it, because nothing is perfect. But we are going to relentlessly chase it, because in the process we will catch excellence. I am not remotely interested in just being good."
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Offline GAHSUMPIRE

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Re: More "great" Sportsmanship
« Reply #26 on: October 05, 2015, 10:56:27 AM »
Rulesman, if there was "physical engagement" as you write, why would the flag be for Unsportsmanlike Conduct, rather than for Personal Fouls? (Perhaps only a semantic difference, but I always thought that the difference between the two was that PF's had actual contact and USC were fouls other than physical contact (taunting, etc.))

Anyway, in that situation, I agree that dropping the flag (and applying it to ALL- not just one person or one side) is appropriate, because there was actually a foul (physical engagement), and I am not sure refusing to shake hands is a foul. It also works in that instance, because I assume once that happens, the two sides were removed from that area, and the opportunity for idiocy was removed as well.

In the coin flip situation, by insisting on the hand shake once it was refused, he not only did not defuse the issue, but made it worse. And then flagging only one side gave the other side, who were just as guilty, a "get out of jail free" card, as there were no repercussion for the same actions. I don't think you need to flag, but if you do flag, it has to apply to both (as the official did in your example), assessing the foul only to one side because they are the home team makes no sense.


Offline Rulesman

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Re: More "great" Sportsmanship
« Reply #27 on: October 05, 2015, 11:53:17 AM »
Refusing to comply with a game official's request is one example of UNS. I agree the coin toss situation could have been handled differently. 

And I believe you would have a hard time selling PF when the action occurs 30 minutes before kickoff, especially if all 150 or so aren't observed making contact with an opponent.  No doubt in my play UNS was the correct call. Remember, two UNS fouls provide for an early shower. Two PFs do not. That was the message being sent.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2015, 11:56:58 AM by Rulesman »
"Gentlemen, we are going to relentlessly chase perfection, knowing full well we will not catch it, because nothing is perfect. But we are going to relentlessly chase it, because in the process we will catch excellence. I am not remotely interested in just being good."
- Vince Lombardi

pjsaul

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Re: More "great" Sportsmanship
« Reply #28 on: October 05, 2015, 12:25:03 PM »
Rulesman, if there was "physical engagement" as you write, why would the flag be for Unsportsmanlike Conduct, rather than for Personal Fouls? (Perhaps only a semantic difference, but I always thought that the difference between the two was that PF's had actual contact and USC were fouls other than physical contact (taunting, etc.))

I've been taught that the actual determining factor in PF vs. USC is if the physical engagement occurs in the context of a football play.

For example, assume a defensive player roughly knocks down a runner who is 1 or 2 steps out of bounds.  This occurred in the immediate action of a football play. DB PF.

Now, assume that the defensive player roughly contacts the runner after he has come to a stop out of bounds and is returning to the field. This is no longer in the context of a play. USC. Let's the player now that one more and he is gone.

Offline HLinNC

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Re: More "great" Sportsmanship
« Reply #29 on: October 05, 2015, 12:58:13 PM »
Quote
Now, assume that the defensive player roughly contacts the runner after he has come to a stop out of bounds and is returning to the field. This is no longer in the context of a play. USC. Let's the player now that one more and he is gone.

Or better yet, deem it a flagrant PF and then you don't have to wait for the 2nd incident.

Offline VALJ

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Re: More "great" Sportsmanship
« Reply #30 on: October 05, 2015, 01:16:57 PM »
Or better yet, deem it a flagrant PF and then you don't have to wait for the 2nd incident.

This would certainly be an option, depending on how serious the contact is, and just how late the contact occurs.  One could also argue that, depending on how late exactly the contact is, it is "in a combative manner unrelated to football" and consider it as an attempt to instigate a fight.

Offline VALJ

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Re: More "great" Sportsmanship
« Reply #31 on: October 05, 2015, 01:20:55 PM »
Unrelated to my previous post...

If you're going to throw a USC flag on a captain for failing to shake hands as requested - which I think is a stretch, but I'll go with it for a moment - shouldn't you also flag the other captain who didn't attempt to shake hands, either?  It's not like the team in white was trying to shake, either.

Offline GAHSUMPIRE

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Re: More "great" Sportsmanship
« Reply #32 on: October 05, 2015, 04:10:31 PM »
Refusing to comply with a game official's request is one example of UNS. I agree the coin toss situation could have been handled differently. 

And I believe you would have a hard time selling PF when the action occurs 30 minutes before kickoff, especially if all 150 or so aren't observed making contact with an opponent.  No doubt in my play UNS was the correct call. Remember, two UNS fouls provide for an early shower. Two PFs do not. That was the message being sent.

Thanks Rulesman. I don't have an issue calling it Unsportsmanlike, just wondering on the difference. I agree that the flag was warranted in your example. But as I said earlier, and as VALJ said, if you flag one, you should flag both.

Offline hefnerjm

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Re: More "great" Sportsmanship
« Reply #33 on: October 05, 2015, 07:31:51 PM »
Rulesman, if there was "physical engagement" as you write, why would the flag be for Unsportsmanlike Conduct, rather than for Personal Fouls? (Perhaps only a semantic difference, but I always thought that the difference between the two was that PF's had actual contact and USC were fouls other than physical contact (taunting, etc.))

I heard a great comparison tonight that really simplified this to my mind:
A Personal Foul is a foul against a player
An Unsportsmanlike Act is a foul against the game (see Code of Conduct)

Think about that...chew on it for a second. 
We are the defenders of this great game...how do you view this situation now? 
Coach: "I've been doing this 30 years!  I know the rules!"
Ref: "Are you married coach?"
Coach (suddenly offguard): "umm...yeah, why?"
Ref: "I've been married 30 years and my wife says there is still room for improvement"
Coach: "<silence>"

Offline GAHSUMPIRE

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Re: More "great" Sportsmanship
« Reply #34 on: October 05, 2015, 08:05:22 PM »
I heard a great comparison tonight that really simplified this to my mind:
A Personal Foul is a foul against a player
An Unsportsmanlike Act is a foul against the game (see Code of Conduct)

Think about that...chew on it for a second. 
We are the defenders of this great game...how do you view this situation now?

I get that, and I understand it, and it seems to make sense in the Coin Toss situation,  but with that definition in mind, it seems to me it would contradict what pjsaul said earlier in this post:

"I've been taught that the actual determining factor in PF vs. USC is if the physical engagement occurs in the context of a football play.

For example, assume a defensive player roughly knocks down a runner who is 1 or 2 steps out of bounds.  This occurred in the immediate action of a football play. DB PF.

Now, assume that the defensive player roughly contacts the runner after he has come to a stop out of bounds and is returning to the field. This is no longer in the context of a play. USC. Let's the player now that one more and he is gone."

Using your logic in that situation- it is still a foul against a player, (the way I look at it), so it would be a Personal Foul instead of Unsportsmanlike Conduct.

 The 2nd foul (contact against the runner returning to the field) is still a "foul against a player", is it not? In which case, by your reasoning, it would be a Personal Foul.


Offline Jackie ED

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Re: More "great" Sportsmanship
« Reply #35 on: October 05, 2015, 09:57:53 PM »
In my 13 years as an official and 8 years as a player ive never witnessed anything close to this. The R could've (in my opinion should've) let it go after they refused. I would've made a point to say something about what is expected as far as fair play and no cheap stuff. Major question is, where are the Head Coaches for the coin toss? The HCs always are present for the coin toss in Ky. As far as controlling the game, if the HCs are not willing to reel in their players and especially their asst. coaches then there is very little the officials can do other than penalize and eject players and coaches. I believe the HCs should be punished to some extent, bc obviously this behavior isn't started in pre-game warmups. The Referee should never say "shut up" and if he cant control the captains at the coin toss then he needs to get the HCs together with the Umpire and lay down the law.

Offline VALJ

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Re: More "great" Sportsmanship
« Reply #36 on: October 05, 2015, 11:02:54 PM »
Not all states require the HC to come out for the coin toss.  Virginia, for one, doesn't.

wv ref

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Re: More "great" Sportsmanship
« Reply #37 on: October 06, 2015, 07:44:45 AM »
Let us not forget precedent set for us at higher levels.

Still think it could have been handled better, but its not the first.

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/11803938/maryland-terrapins-coach-randy-edsall-apologizes-captains-refusing-shake-hands


Offline HLinNC

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Re: More "great" Sportsmanship
« Reply #38 on: October 06, 2015, 08:10:20 AM »
Quote
Not all states require the HC to come out for the coin toss.  Virginia, for one, doesn't.

NC +1 (Except for the OT- then its one captain and HC)

Offline bama_stripes

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Re: More "great" Sportsmanship
« Reply #39 on: October 06, 2015, 08:15:37 AM »
Or the infamous 1987 Miami-Penn State Fiesta Bowl.  That was the year Miami wore fatigues and walked out of a dinner held for the two teams.

Offline hefnerjm

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Re: More "great" Sportsmanship
« Reply #40 on: October 06, 2015, 09:57:33 AM »

Now, assume that the defensive player roughly contacts the runner after he has come to a stop out of bounds and is returning to the field. This is no longer in the context of a play. USC. Let's the player now that one more and he is gone."

Using your logic in that situation- it is still a foul against a player, (the way I look at it), so it would be a Personal Foul instead of Unsportsmanlike Conduct.

 The 2nd foul (contact against the runner returning to the field) is still a "foul against a player", is it not? In which case, by your reasoning, it would be a Personal Foul.

While contact is against a player, if it is outside the context of a play, I would consider it an act against the game.  If a player is trying to make a tackle and gets over aggressive and tackle/shove a guy after he is already OOB, then DB PF.  But if he comes after him outside of a play, I would have an act that runs counter to the principle our game teaches, which follows the logic that I can have contact against a player which is, by definition, unsporting. (i.e. throwing a punch should never be a DB PF)
Coach: "I've been doing this 30 years!  I know the rules!"
Ref: "Are you married coach?"
Coach (suddenly offguard): "umm...yeah, why?"
Ref: "I've been married 30 years and my wife says there is still room for improvement"
Coach: "<silence>"

Offline TXMike

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Re: More "great" Sportsmanship
« Reply #41 on: October 08, 2015, 07:31:20 AM »
Th story that started the thread gets a little more confusing...

http://usatodayhss.com/2015/the-curious-case-of-a-florida-football-players-yearlong-suspension

Offline hefnerjm

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Re: More "great" Sportsmanship
« Reply #42 on: October 08, 2015, 09:36:16 AM »
Th story that started the thread gets a little more confusing...

http://usatodayhss.com/2015/the-curious-case-of-a-florida-football-players-yearlong-suspension

The plot thickens. 

Sounds like a pretty clear cut case of loss of institutional control that has persisted for the better part of a decade (since at least 2007).
Coach: "I've been doing this 30 years!  I know the rules!"
Ref: "Are you married coach?"
Coach (suddenly offguard): "umm...yeah, why?"
Ref: "I've been married 30 years and my wife says there is still room for improvement"
Coach: "<silence>"

Offline NorCalMike

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Re: More "great" Sportsmanship
« Reply #43 on: October 09, 2015, 03:07:10 AM »
Some of you guys said you wouldn't bring the coaches to the center of the field like I said in my post and I can understand that but I would be doing it for a couple of specific reasons.

1. I want everyone in the stadium that I had a talk with the coaches.
2. I only want to make the speech one time.
3. I don't want a bunch of assistants around mouthing off that I would end up flagging.
4. I don't want a bunch of the players around. I want the coaches to tell the players what I had to say.
5. Calling the coaches to the center of the field show how serious I am about what I was saying.
6. I want to on my own ground not on the coaches ground.

The way I see this whole thing is its a power struggle and I want to show them that the power in this game is going to reside with me. If they don't like it, we can terminate the game.

I wouldn't throw a flag on anyone. I would use the God rule. I just would make my position very clear.

Offline VALJ

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Re: More "great" Sportsmanship
« Reply #44 on: October 09, 2015, 07:42:14 AM »
I had one game five or six years back that I was white hatting that was just incredibly ugly - cheap shots galore, several USCs, and the like.  One homeschool team and one private school team, both Christian groups.  I finally got fed up with about 3 minutes left in the first half, called time, sent both teams to their sidelines, and called out the head coaches.  I told the coaches that as far as I was concerned, this wasn't football, and that I was going to tell the kids that they could play football or they could sit the rest of the night.  Both agreed, so I called the kids back out - all of them, from both sides, and had them huddle around me.

I told the kids that as far as I was concerned, they could get back to playing football, or they could keep up with what they were doing, and we could all go home at the half, because there wouldn't be anybody left to play.  Then the coaches got involved - both of them ripped their own team right in front of the other team for the way they were playing.  One of them even asked his team "how can you shake hands with the other team, and call each other brothers in Christ, with the way you're playing?"  He unloaded almost an old-school, hellfire and brimstone sermon.  The coaches finished, I told the kids it's time to play some football, and we finished the half and the game.  Things settled down greatly (though not perfect - they're kids, after all).

After the game, I found out that our commissoner and assigner was there, and he said "the meeting before the half was a bit unusual, but it got the job done."

Offline bama_stripes

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Re: More "great" Sportsmanship
« Reply #45 on: October 09, 2015, 07:49:03 AM »
After the game, I found out that our commissoner and assigner was there, and he said "the meeting before the half was a bit unusual, but it got the job done."

You know, there are many times we get so caught up in "proper procedure" and mechanics that we forget to use our common sense & do what needs to be done to control the game.

Kudos to you!    tiphat:

Offline GAHSUMPIRE

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Re: More "great" Sportsmanship
« Reply #46 on: October 09, 2015, 07:57:21 AM »
Mike, you raise a number of very valid points, and I think I understand your reasoning, but I am not sure I agree.

I just think that if you do that, you call attention to it, and run a greater risk of escalation than if you address it individually. From the evidence presented in this case, I have nothing to tell me that the coaches knew anything about the player's behavior during the coin toss.

"Showing everyone in the stadium that you are talking to the coaches" is fine , as far as it goes, I guess, but they don't know what you are talking about, heck, for all they know, you could be discussing what the weather or how to beat the traffic after the game. I think bringing the coaches out to midfield in a show like that, puts them in a bad light, and on the defensive right off the bat. Yes, we want to assert and maintain control, but it's better to work with the coaches, than against them.

I will always assume positive intent on the part of coaches (until I can't). Perhaps I shouldn't, but with everything that is going through their minds right before a game, I can't believe that they are thinking about the players who have been designated as leaders (for whatever reason) acting like spoiled children.

I understand only making the speech one time. In my example you would have to do it twice, but I think it is worth it to reduce the risk of escalation.

We don't know, at this point, if there were a bunch of assistants mouthing off. And if there were, I can then the head coach would also know it, so after I give the sideline warning at the end of our discussion, we will know who will be responsible the next time the flag comes out.

You don't have to have a bunch of players around when doing this, you can walk with the coach to a less crowded area and, again not make the conference so conspicuous. walking side by side, rather than face to face can also help lower the tension. Though if there are players around specifically those that acted childishly, perhaps that is a moment that the coach can assert his leadership. They are his players, he has responsibility for their actions.

Calling the coaches to the center of the field show how serious I am about what I was saying.  They should know you are serious about your discussion regardless of where it occurs. I don't make a habit of sideline conversations, so when one occurs, it is already serious.

I want to talk to them on my own ground not on the coaches ground. The entire field is "my ground." But, again, I am not looking to escalate this situation, I am looking to calm it down. If I can talk to the coach where he is comfortable, I'm ok with that.

I guess your last statement is where we disagree the most. I don't think it is- or should be- a struggle for power. The rules ALREADY give me the power, I don't have to show it. I am willing to be a benevolent dictator and share some of that power with the coach with the idea that we will all be much happier that way.

I'd rather we all work toward the same goal rather than be confrontational.

Perhaps I'm being naïve. But I just think there is a different way to make this work.



Johnponz

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Re: More "great" Sportsmanship
« Reply #47 on: October 09, 2015, 08:27:45 AM »
You should take the word "power" out of your officiating vocabulary.  We are there to serve the game, conference, and schools.

Offline BrendanP

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Re: More "great" Sportsmanship
« Reply #48 on: October 09, 2015, 08:55:22 AM »
Being confrontational is never going to de-escalate a situation. I really don't think I've seen a fellow official acting that unprofessional either as an official or a spectator. Just let it go and inform the head coaches that we're going to be tighter on jawing/shoving during the game, so the kids better calm down. JMHO

Offline Eastshire

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Re: More "great" Sportsmanship
« Reply #49 on: October 09, 2015, 09:49:13 AM »
Being confrontational is never going to de-escalate a situation. I really don't think I've seen a fellow official acting that unprofessional either as an official or a spectator. Just let it go and inform the head coaches that we're going to be tighter on jawing/shoving during the game, so the kids better calm down. JMHO

This isn't true. Reading the riot act can work. VALJ just gave you an example. I've done it with similar success except with captains in basketball.

Delivering the message that the officials have determined that the normal approach to calling fouls is not having the desired approach and are about to take draconian measures can wake up the players and get them to change their ways. It won't always work but it works enough that it's worth doing.

Also, it's not about a power play between the officials on one side and coaches/players on the other. We don't have to challenge for authority; we already have it. One of the best pieces of advice I've every received on officiating is that we don't have to have the last word, because we have the last say.