Measurements in Tex HS Champ Game

[TxSkyBolt]

I forget which game it was, but think it was the 4A game at 1200 on Saturday.  Twice, the crew measured for a first down when the ball started on a major yard line.  The ball was clearly placed touching or into the white strip on the line to gain, but they chose to measure anyway.  Twice it was measured and twice ruled short.  My understanding on the reason for starting a series on a yard line is to ease the call of a first down.  I've never seen a measurement like this on such a well marked field.

Best regards,
Brad

[Birddog]

I forget which game it was, but think it was the 4A game at 1200 on Saturday.  Twice, the crew measured for a first down when the ball started on a major yard line.  The ball was clearly placed touching or into the white strip on the line to gain, but they chose to measure anyway.  Twice it was measured and twice ruled short.  My understanding on the reason for starting a series on a yard line is to ease the call of a first down.  I've never seen a measurement like this on such a well marked field.

Brad, I noticed that also on several occasions.  I know it was done in the 5A Steele game.  On these type of fields we always ues the lines to our advantage, not sure why they didn't.

Also, not sure which game but there was another strange measurment.  There was 5 yard penalty against the defense.  They walked off the 5 yards then brought out the chains, I think it was a first down by inches?  Why didn't they use the tape at the half way point in the chain? 

[JasonTX]

I belive both times they measured they were short of the first down by the width of the yard line.  It would appear that the chain crew lined the chains up with the front of the yard line.  They should have lined them up with the back side of the yard line.  Each time the ball was spotted on the back side.

[Ump62]

Actually Jason, wouldn't it be the other way around? If the Chain Crew had the clip at the front of the line and the clip was placed at the back for the measurement, then it would have been a first down by three inches.

[JasonTX]

Actually Jason, wouldn't it be the other way around? If the Chain Crew had the clip at the front of the line and the clip was placed at the back for the measurement, then it would have been a first down by three inches.

I don't know where the clip was.  I just know that when they measured the front stick was on the far side of the yard line.  Perhaps at the start of the series the clip was placed on the back side as it should be but the chains were set on the far side.  Or, the chains were set properly as well as the clip, but when they measured they put the clip on the front side which would then make the front stick be on the far side of the line and short of a first down.  When I work a game and if the series starts on the 20, we place the ball on the back side of the line so that means we have to get to the back side of the 30 for a first down.  In this game for some reason, the far side of the yardline was the line to gain.   Of course, it is possible that the sticks and clips were all on the right spot, but the chains were just 3 inches too long.

[TxSkyBolt]

The point of this discussion is that if the ball starts on a yard line and ends up on a yard line 10 yards from where it started, it's a first down and we don't measure.  Of course, this would only be true on a well marked field.

[BankerRef]

The point of this discussion is that if the ball starts on a yard line and ends up on a yard line 10 yards from where it started, it's a first down and we don't measure.  Of course, this would only be true on a well marked field.

Why only on a well marked field?

[Osric Pureheart]

Cos the lines may not be 10 yards and then you'll end up giving first downs when the chain says you're short.

[TxSkyBolt]

Why only on a well marked field?

I've seen fields where the distance between major lines is more or less than 5 or 10 yards.  Also, some look to be lined by drunken sailors.

Best regards,

Brad

[BankerRef]

I've seen my share of wavy line fields as well.  But if I have to trust one line I'm going to trust them all. 

[WABill]

Cos the lines may not be 10 yards and then you'll end up giving first downs when the chain says you're short.

Everyone in the stadium and on TV can see 10 yards.  No need to make the game more difficult.  Never, never, measure when you start on a line and get to a line.  You set yourself up for constant second guessing and "measure, measure" all night long.  Use common sense, not technical precision.  I guarantee you that marking the ball is not an exact or precise thing.  The only time you can be sure of a good and 100% correct spot is after a touchback.  Everything else relies upon being cross eyed and seeing the ball and the body part that touches the ground.

[gigmax]

In theroy you are right, but the coaches don't understand from line to line.  There are times when you have to give the coaches piece of mind.  If you don't, in his mind, you screwed him.  You don't have to do it every time, but in critical situations, you have to.  Even if you know what the outcome will be.  It will make things a lot easier.  I had this happen in a quater final about 8 years ago in the Alamodome.  Lake Travis had the ball and tried to draw Alamo Heights offside late in the game on 4th down.  AH jumped, but did not enter the neutral zone.  Everyone was just standing there.  Coach Dicus started yealling for his quarterback to run and he rolled and ran right to the stick where i was standing.  I placed the ball on the 38 thinking it was a first.  My referee said we were going to measure and we did.  It was a 1/4'' short.  There were no complaints from either bench.  LT and AH knew they got a good spot, they got the measurement and they lived with it.  It is what it is.  You do it to ease the coaches mind and it ultimately makes it easier on yourself.

[BankerRef]

I think most coaches do understand line to line.  It is fine to give them piece of mind by measuring when the line to gain is the 38 but if you started on the 20 and the team makes the 30 there is no need to measure for any reason.  Simply tell the coach that the 30 was the line to gain and it was made.

[TXMike]

In theroy you are right, but the coaches don't understand from line to line.  There are times when you have to give the coaches piece of mind.  If you don't, in his mind, you screwed him. 

Therein lies a great example of the major problem of our coach's pick system.

[Welpe]

Therein lies a great example of the major problem of our coach's pick system.

And how!

[gigmax]

It has nothing to do with the pick system.  We have chains there for a reason.  What you are saying is get rid of the chains, because we don't need them.  The majority of the time, you are right.  You don't measure that.  1st, 2nd or 3rd downs you don't measure, 4th down, critical situation you do.  It has nothing to do wheather or not a coach picked you or not.  It's common sense in officiating.  I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one.

[TXMike]

The chains are needed at times.  But when you are on an articifical surface and you start on a 5, 10, 15, 20 etc yardline, there is NO reason to measure, to include placating the coach.  There is also no reason to measure if you start on any other yard line and the play ends on a sideline, "critical" situation or not.

[Texas LJ]

I am not sure how many officials have ever actually checked the distances on a field with the chains, but there is not a perfect field out there including Cowboy Stadium, Reliant, Alamodome and many others. Some fields are longer on one end than the other, some are longer from the 20 to the endzone or the 40 to the 20 and from one side to the other. I would assume that in a championship game more so than any other you would want to measure any close call whether a coach asked for it or not and whether he picked you or not.

[TXMike]

I know I see a lot fewer measurements in nfl games and college games than I do in HS games. 

[BankerRef]

We have chains there for a reason.  What you are saying is get rid of the chains, because we don't need them. 

I am certainly not suggesting that we get rid of the chains.  As you said they are there for a reason.  My point is that the lines are there for a reason also and we should use them when possible even on a field that is questionably marked.

Whenever we measure we are always putting our trust in a line (the one with the clip).  If we are going to trust that the clipped line is the exact correct distance from the original position of the ball at all points on that line why can't we trust that the line ten yards from the original line is the correct distance also.  What makes the line with the clip more accurate than another?  I could even argue that in the case of starting on a yard line that measuring with the chains brings in even more variables for potential inaccuracy than just trusting the line that had to be reached.

[AlUpstateNY]

It's really not that difficult, the chains are there to assist the referee in determining when the LTG has been accomplished.  If there is the slightest bit of doubt, on the part of the Referee, he should absolutely and always eliminate that doubt by measuring.  

When there is no doubt, either way, there is no reason to measure.  It's not about getting an extra break in the action, convincing a coach one way or the other.  Coaches only need to be informed, being convinced is immaterial and is not a purpose of measuring.  The only person who needs to be convinced is the Referee, and he has the absolute and only say as to when he feels a measurement is necessary.

Having said that, Referee's also get to choose when, and about what, they want to make decisions without using all the tools at their disposal.  A sensible standard is, when there is ANY (whatsoever) doubt, it makes sense to use the chains so all doubt is removed whenever appropriate throughout the game.  When there is NO (whatsoever) doubt in the Referee's mind, there is no need to measure regardless of the situation, whenever throughout the game.

Anyone, other than the Referee, who thinks he has some right to have a measurementdone, is simply WRONG.

[JasonTX]

For those that suggest to measure and not trust the field markings, how are we to know that the chains are exactly 10 yards?  Has anyone actually took out a tape measure to test the accuracy of the chains?

[WABill]

For those that suggest to measure and not trust the field markings, how are we to know that the chains are exactly 10 yards?  Has anyone actually took out a tap measure to test the accuracy of the chains?

Excellent point.  Faith in something everyone can see (the field) or faith in the grounds crew to have enough links.  And with the attachment points to the chains always breaking and tape being added, that is the type of precision to hang your hat on.

[LarryW60]

For those that suggest to measure and not trust the field markings, how are we to know that the chains are exactly 10 yards?  Has anyone actually took out a tape measure to test the accuracy of the chains?

The fields are rarely marked accurately throughout the entire length of the field.  With chains, though, you don't CARE how accurately they're spaced because no one team gets an advantage... both teams have the same distance to go no matter which direction they are going or which end of the field they're on.

[FatboyHL]

From someone who has marked a field for the both high school and division 1 college football many of you are correct.  Correct in saying that the lines on the field are only as good as the person who is marking that field.  Artificial fields are the same and usually only as good as installed.  Like the Alamodome in San Antonio, Jerry's world rolls up their fields and places the field that is needed for the event (Cowboys Field, NCAA marked field, or Soccer).  Both teams are playing on the field.  Bottom line is there is only 6 lines that matter.  The 2 side lines, 2 end lines, and the 2 goal lines.  All the rest are for administrative or statistical purposes.  If the person keeping stats in the press box says team A started on the 20 and the ball carrier runs the the 25 1/2 that person may say 5 or 6 yards depending on their thought process.  If the series of downs starts on the 21 and the ball carrier goes to the 31 then the play went 10 yards.  We should use these lines to our advantage as often as we can to maintain the flow of the game.  I agree certain spots are more critical than other throughout the course of the game and should be handled accordingly.  The line judge has this control in his hands in five man mechanics without auxillary chains.  We get hung up to much on "the spot" instead of giving all the forward progress we that we should.  Knowing down, distance, where you are on the field, understanding the flow of the game, and being consistant should go into making that spot.  Measuring on third down in the first quarter makes no sense.  Measuring on fourth down for a first down or change of posession does.

Bottom line I am a fatboy at head line and hate to measure.