Taking a Knee

[bbeagle]

And what rule allows a USC call?

Why not just officiate the game you have?

Because our local chapter tells us this is the way we must officiate the 'take a knee' play. Only following instructions.

[Jason Kramer]

And what rule allows a USC call?

Why not just officiate the game you have?

Similar to the "wrong ball" play. Illegal deception.

[James]

Some people find a dive play boring. De gustibus non est disputandum.

You go through the "formality" because the game is not over until time expires.

And I think a majority of us would find the (in)action of a soccer game boring, but it is by far the most loved game in the world.

[bama_stripes]

Around our parts, we have had the same issues.

We tell the defense to lay off, that that offense is taking a knee. If the offense does anything other than take a knee, our chapter has been told to blow the play dead immediately and issue a 15 yard unsportsmanlike conduct.

I can't seem to find that in the list of FED "by state adoption" options.

[Kalle]

Similar to the "wrong ball" play. Illegal deception.

Do you flag the offense for USC if the QB in the huddle loudly says "#33 sweep right" and then they throw a long pass to #80 on the left? If not, why throw a flag for running a play from an apparent take-a-knee formation?

[BuckTrump]

I have no problem with a team looking like they are going to take a knee and then run a play out of it. 

I do however have a problem with Team A telling the officials they are going to take a knee and then running a play out of it. 

In the first situation, Team A is just fooling Team B through a unique method (I have no problem with this as it goes on all the time).  You formation can sometimes say "pass" and you instead run out of it.  I am not sure I see any difference between setting up in this "victory formation" with 20 seconds left and running a play out of it compared to going "5-wide" with 20 seconds left and running out of this set.  Having said all of that, how does this situation differ from faking a "spike"?  Someone smarter than me needs to explain the difference.

The second situation is something completely differant however.  Team A has brought a third party (The officials) into this deception.  This is when their is potential for a problem.  If I tell the defense that they are taking a knee and they run a play out of this formation than I have helped them deceive and that is not alright.  Basically, for that one play, it was 12 vs 11. 

It is for this reason that it might be best to not say a word unless you feel like their is impending problems that await.  Meaning, do you expect the Defense to get in one last "cheap shot" as time expires?  How do you believe that the Offense will respond?  If your answer is "poorly" than saying something may be considered good preventative officiating which I am always a big fan of. 

Hard to come up with a blanket statement on this one!

[maven]

Similar to the "wrong ball" play. Illegal deception.

No, it is not similar enough, nor illegal deception. The "wrong ball play" is specifically prohibited because it deceives the defense into thinking that "a snap isn't imminent." That rationale is not available with regard to "victory."

[Atlanta Blue]

No, it is not similar enough, nor illegal deception. The "wrong ball play" is specifically prohibited because it deceives the defense into thinking that "a snap isn't imminent." That rationale is not available with regard to "victory."

Exactly right.

 

[TampaSteve]

not saying it's 'right' or 'wrong' but round these parts:
QB tells R he's taking a knee; B is informed 'they're taking a knee - nothing stupid.'
if A does not take a knee - USC.

[Atlanta Blue]

not saying it's 'right' or 'wrong' but round these parts:
QB tells R he's taking a knee; B is informed 'they're taking a knee - nothing stupid.'
if A does not take a knee - USC.

OK, I'll say it: it's wrong.

Simple answer: A shouldn't tell the officials or B anything, just play.

[Jason Kramer]

Do you flag the offense for USC if the QB in the huddle loudly says "#33 sweep right" and then they throw a long pass to #80 on the left? If not, why throw a flag for running a play from an apparent take-a-knee formation?

It's not about the formation, it's about informing the officials and using the officials communication to the defense to put the defense at a relaxed position.

If you and/or your crew have the philosophy of not getting involved, and the offense is in 'victory' formation, but runs a play, that's not a penalty.
But if you choose to tell the defense that the offense is taking a knee, you can't let a regular play be run.

To me, that's an argument to not get involved at all, other than maybe a "be smart" warning.

[bbeagle]

...
Team A has brought a third party (The officials) into this deception.  This is when their is potential for a problem. 
 ....
Hard to come up with a blanket statement on this one!

I agree.

There are many times we say things to try and prevent injury. For example, the R and U use the illegal formation signal on kick-plays and tell the defense 'lay off the snapper', as the snapper has protection on these plays. We have one team who uses this to their advantage by lining up the snapper at the end of the line and throwing to him.

We say 'ball is gone' when the kick or pass is gone. This is to let players know they can let up, and quit going to the quarterback, in order to protect both the QB from being hit late, and the defense from getting a foul. What if we were fooled, and say 'ball is gone', but it isn't, and the QB still has it? I can't imagine this happening, but anything is possible.

[Kalle]

We say 'ball is gone' when the kick or pass is gone. This is to let players know they can let up, and quit going to the quarterback, in order to protect both the QB from being hit late, and the defense from getting a foul. What if we were fooled, and say 'ball is gone', but it isn't, and the QB still has it? I can't imagine this happening, but anything is possible.

I've actually once or twice started to vocalize "g" before realizing that it was a very good pump fake... fortunately I haven't got as far as actually yelling "gone" with the ball still being with the QB/punter.

I don't know what I would do if I really did yell out "gone" too early. Now that I think about it, I probably would have to follow it with an "inadvertent" whistle and go with the IW provisions. I can't think of any other way out of it.

[bama_stripes]

For example, the R and U use the illegal formation signal on kick-plays and tell the defense 'lay off the snapper', as the snapper has protection on these plays.

And that's wrong, too, since the prohibition is against charging directly into the snapper.  They can still make contact if they shoot the gaps.

We tell 'em "Don't rough the snapper."  It's quick, concise, and correct.

[bbeagle]

I probably would have to follow it with an "inadvertent" whistle

Good idea, but then it's not an 'inadvertent' whistle, it's an INTENTIONAL whistle enforced as an inadvertent whistle. 

[James]

I'm a little annoyed that some people are so adamant that it is wrong to relay the information, or call a foul when it is.
As far as I understand, every association or state have some exceptions or changes to some aspect of the rules.
Mine have decided - since the discipline of the players is weak and they might use unnecessary plays to injure an opponent at the end of a game, that the offense is allowed to register the 'Take a knee' and they will be allowed to run down the clock and conclude the game. I expect some semi-pro leagues in the US are similar (in the lack of discipline).
If they don't they will be penalized.
Should my association simply enforce an option that they don't have to snap if the time/time-out/down combo means that they can run out the clock? Maybe, but they haven't. The teams know what is expected of them, and we will try to close out the game without any ugly incidence.

[brownie]

If the time/time-out/down combo means that O can run out the clock and they tell us they're planning to take a knee we give D the option to just call the game there.

If D opted not to take it and make O go through the motions then I’d let O run whatever play they want, to date however the option to call the game has never been turned down.

[zebraken]

has anyone considered the liability issues that could arise from officials informing the defence that 'taking a knee' is imminent only to have a defensive player getting seriously injured after the offence fakes a knee and runs a dive play because he took the officials advice and 'layed off' and played nice?

[TampaSteve]

can an Administrator lock this?    Certainly there are 2 sides to this fence and perhaps we all can agree to disagree, no matter what side of the fence we are on.

[Rulesman]

can an Administrator lock this?    Certainly there are 2 sides to this fence and perhaps we all can agree to disagree, no matter what side of the fence we are on.

Done!