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Offline sczeebra

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Safety?
« on: April 17, 2015, 09:48:49 AM »
On a punt rolling near R's goal line an R player thru an illegal bat forces the ball through R's end zone. Safety or not?
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Offline prab

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Re: Safety?
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2015, 09:56:28 AM »
I say not a safety.

The ball retains its status as a kick until possessed or becoming dead.  The illegal bat does not change the status from being a kick.  So you have a kick crossing R's goal line and therefore it is a touchback.  Illegal bat should be considered as a PSK foul and penalized accordingly. 
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Offline FLAHL

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Re: Safety?
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2015, 09:58:45 AM »
A kick is a kick is a kick... Not a safety.
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Offline sczeebra

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Re: Safety?
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2015, 10:05:22 AM »
Its just hard to get my head wrapped around Section 13 Art.2 ... unless a new force is applied..., giving responsibility to R.
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Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Safety?
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2015, 10:11:57 AM »
No new force can apply until the kick has ended in the OP.
A kick can't end until:
 (1) It rolls dead;
 (2) it goes OOB or EZ;
 (3) it is in player possession.

Result of OP : Touchback

Enforcement spot : Spot of the foul (illegal bat) under ABO...IE...if the illegal bat occurred at the 2, it would become R's ball at the 1.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2015, 10:22:24 AM by Ralph Damren »
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Offline prab

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Re: Safety?
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2015, 10:17:37 AM »
2-13-4a    Force is not a factor on kicks going into R's end zone, since these kicks are always a touchback regardless of who supplied the force..
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Offline sczeebra

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Re: Safety?
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2015, 10:33:28 AM »
Thank you! Just clearing the dust off, it came back to me.
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Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Safety?
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2015, 10:47:10 AM »
TGIF Trivia :
  Feeling forced to discuss force, I ask the following......

 4th & 10 @ K's 10, K punts when :
  (1) Punt blocked and bounces back and through EZ;
  (2) R1 calls for fair catch @ 15, punt ricochets off R1's helmet back and through EZ.
  (3) Partially blocked punt is bouncing @ K's 5 when R1 dives for it and muffs it
       off the pylon.
  (4) Partially blocked punt is bouncing @ K's 5 when it strikes R1's backside  and ricochets
       off the pylon.

  ...I am now forced by the police force to move my car ,or receive a parking ticket. That may force me to my favorite restaurant where I'll be forced to gnaw on the carcass of a mutilated mammal -lobster chowder comes tomorrow. Have an enjoyable weekend - good luck on the force questions and.....

.........MAY THE FORCE BE WITH YOU....     
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Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: Safety?
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2015, 12:26:33 PM »
I'm forced to say:

Safety
Safety
Safety
Safety

A kick is a kick until it isn't a kick.  All of these are still kicks, which makes K responsible for putting the ball into (or out of) the end zone.

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Offline ncwingman

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Re: Safety?
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2015, 01:09:28 PM »
Quote from: Atlanta Blue on April 17, 2015, 12:26:33 PM
I'm forced to say:

Safety
Safety
Safety
Safety

A kick is a kick until it isn't a kick.  All of these are still kicks, which makes K responsible for putting the ball into (or out of) the end zone.

chewie, we're home.jpg

I edited your post slightly. Hope you don't mind.

I'm not sure I agree with #2 being a safety -- unless that was one hell of a ricochet. I'm assuming that R is standing at R's 15, and the ball bounces through R's end zone. In that case, touchback -- same reason the illegal bat is a touchback if the foul is declined.

I mean, I'd love to see the game where R calls for a fair catch at K's 15. You couldn't pass up the fair catch kick from that spot -- or try to headbutt the ball through K's EZ for a safety.
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Offline Bwest

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Re: Safety?
« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2015, 01:25:28 PM »
Quote from: ncwingman on April 17, 2015, 01:09:28 PM
I'm not sure I agree with #2 being a safety -- unless that was one HECK of a ricochet. I'm assuming that R is standing at R's 15, and the ball bounces through R's end zone. In that case, touchback -- same reason the illegal bat is a touchback if the foul is declined.

The ball is in flight...by rule, you cannot change the force on a ball in flight. Force can't change until after the ball is grounded. K is responsible for putting the ball in the endzone. Had R volleyball spiked this ball out the back of the end zone you would STILL have "safety" as result of the play, but the foul by R would allow K to retain possession and cancel the score.
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Offline ncwingman

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Re: Safety?
« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2015, 01:39:09 PM »
Quote from: Bwest on April 17, 2015, 01:25:28 PM
The ball is in flight...by rule, you cannot change the force on a ball in flight. Force can't change until after the ball is grounded. K is responsible for putting the ball in the endzone. Had R volleyball spiked this ball out the back of the end zone you would STILL have "safety" as result of the play, but the foul by R would allow K to retain possession and cancel the score.

That's where my comment comes in -- which endzone are we talking about? It makes more sense to be R's endzone, in which case it's a touchback. If it was K's endzone, then yes, safety.

Also, on a punt, force can't change until the end of the kick -- which is when the ball is possessed or dead. That's why the illegal bat doesn't add a new force. Also, if R catches the kick cleanly, then turns to lateral it and just chucks it out the back of the endzone on the fly, the ball was never grounded (until it was out of bounds/dead) -- but THAT'S a new force and a safety.
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Offline Bwest

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Re: Safety?
« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2015, 01:58:12 PM »
Quote from: ncwingman on April 17, 2015, 01:39:09 PM
That's where my comment comes in -- which endzone are we talking about? It makes more sense to be R's endzone, in which case it's a touchback. If it was K's endzone, then yes, safety.

Also, on a punt, force can't change until the end of the kick -- which is when the ball is possessed or dead. That's why the illegal bat doesn't add a new force. Also, if R catches the kick cleanly, then turns to lateral it and just chucks it out the back of the endzone on the fly, the ball was never grounded (until it was out of bounds/dead) -- but THAT'S a new force and a safety.

I assume K's endzone...otherwise the kicker would have booted at 75 yard punt in the air. I'm sure Atlanta Blue would sign him up!

The second part is not correct, force actually CAN change in regards to a ball with "kick" status, however the force is irrelevant with regards to R's endzone on a kick. (See 8-5-1, "Responsibility for forcing the ball from the field of play across a goal line is attributed to the player who....kicks the ball, unless a new force is applied to a grounded backward pass, kick, or fumble) It could be relevant when talking about K's endzone!

Two plays:

K 4/10 @ 50. K punts the ball and it is muffed at the R10 by R85. The ball comes to rest in the mud at the R2. R85, in order to prevent K from recovering the ball, kicks the ball out of the back of the end zone.

Result: The result of the play is a TOUCHBACK, since force is not a factor on kicks ending in R's endzone. The foul will be PSK enforced ABO from the R2, R 1/10 @ R1.

K 4/10 @ K20. K punts the ball and it is blocked. The ball lands in a mudpit and comes to rest at the K5. R85 in an attempt to recover the ball muffs the ball into the pylon.

Result: Touchback. The force on the ball changed when R muffed it. K 1/10 @ K20.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2015, 02:07:27 PM by Bwest »
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Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Safety?
« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2015, 09:15:52 AM »
Bwest wins the Kewpie doll aWaRd!! While force is not a factor on kicks going into R's end zone (2-13-4a) ,it is on grounded kicks into K's end zone (2-13-1). #3 has R muffing a grounded kick @ K's 5 into K's EZ. Unless you ruled that the rolling kick would have made it there anyway, you would have a touchback. Thanks, AB, for the fine reminder of a fine movie tiphat:. Bwest brought up a challenging point in an earlier post on this topic, and here's the challenge ..........

  4th & 10 @ K's 10, K punts :
   (1) high ,short airborne punt is spiked out of the air by R's Kief ( a foreign exchange student from Finland, who excels in volleyball and hopes this will impress the prom queen) @ K's 15. The illegal bat :
     (a) goes OOB @ K's 2;
     (b) goes through end zone - this would impress the prom queen, more :).

Results : (a) would be easy ^flag, PSK enforcement = R's ball @ K's 30 under ABO as kick ended @ K's 2.(b) play results in a safety. After a safety, K would next put the ball in play with a free kick, which would imply that PSK (2-16-h[5]) wouldn't apply = loose ball foul = previous spot enforcement = new series for K @ K's 25 ....that's my take...what's yours ??? ??? :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR:   
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