Mouths of Coaches...Part II

[GAHSUMPIRE]

I know I said I was finished with youth ball, but I got asked to do a playoff game, so I figured what the heck.

Then this...

K is leading by 4 pts late in the 4th qtr. They are forced to punt (which, I guess is why I am using K instead of A, but you knew that already).

K's punt is blocked, the ball never crosses the neutral zone, is picked up by a K player and advanced past the line to gain, for a first down.

R's coach disgrees  I explain to him that any K player can recover a scrimmage kick in or behind the neutral zone and advance.

He doesn't believe me. I restate the rule.

He protests. (In this league coaches can protest on the spot, pay a $50 fee to the League and it has to be settled right then and there). We get the game administrator, he gathers the money from his coaches and pays the $50, I go get the rule book, and show him the rule.

Coach says "I've been coaching in this league for 10 years, that must be a  new rule. I've never seen that before."

[VALJ]

Ah, I had a new one Friday night.  QB drops back to pass and rolls to my side.  I'm keying on the tight end, who gets downfield, then one of the linebackers grabs him by the shoulder pads and throws him to the ground.  QB has to run for it, and picks up a couple.  I report the hold to the WH, then turn around to explain it to the coach, and the coach says "but my guy was 5 yards downfield!"

"Coach, it doesn't matter how far downfield he is, he still can't grab a guy a throw him down."

[AlUpstateNY]

It's hard to tell from your description, but it all depends what the Tight End was doing downfield whether the LB can "grabs him by the shoulder pads and throws him to the ground".  NF: 2.3.5.b, "A defensive player may also: push pull or ward off an opponent in an actual attempt to get at the runner or a loose ball if such contact is not pass interference, a personal foul or illegal use of the hands."

If the LB was attempting to get to the QB rolling out, and the TE was between the LB and the QB the contact may have been legal.  If the TE was moving away from the LB, as a receiver, then there is a foul. 

[VALJ]

He wasn't trying to make a play on the QB - he had dropped back into zone coverage.  Still, the "he was more than five yards downfield" just killed me.  Coach, on Sundays, illegal contact can only happen at least five yards downfield, so i would be a flag then, too...

[JugglingReferee]

I know I said I was finished with youth ball, but I got asked to do a playoff game, so I figured what the heck.

Then this...

K is leading by 4 pts late in the 4th qtr. They are forced to punt (which, I guess is why I am using K instead of A, but you knew that already).

K's punt is blocked, the ball never crosses the neutral zone, is picked up by a K player and advanced past the line to gain, for a first down.

R's coach disgrees  I explain to him that any K player can recover a scrimmage kick in or behind the neutral zone and advance.

He doesn't believe me. I restate the rule.

He protests. (In this league coaches can protest on the spot, pay a $50 fee to the League and it has to be settled right then and there). We get the game administrator, he gathers the money from his coaches and pays the $50, I go get the rule book, and show him the rule.

Coach says "I've been coaching in this league for 10 years, that must be a  new rule. I've never seen that before."

Surely you get some of that $50.      8)

[GAHSUMPIRE]

Nope. Fines (for ejections, unsportsmanlike, etc) and protest fees go into a fund that the Association uses to award scholarships to former players and cheerleaders.

[AlUpstateNY]

What do the 22 players on the field, and the 20 or more substitutes on each sideline do while the adults are going through the "dance" of securing a rule book, looking up a rule
(which most likely involves several different rule references) to cover some situation that the adult participants saw from completely different perspectives?

That may be a league procedure that would apply when you have parent volunteers acting as officials, but makes no sense when you hire professional officials.

[GAHSUMPIRE]

In this case it was treated as an extended water break. Initially, the teams were out on the field, but as the time wore on, they started to jaw at each other so they were sent to the sidelines.

I agree, Al, I don't like the procedure, and it is not one that I would ever implement were I the commissioner, however, the rule is in place at present, so it had to be followed.

[Harry]

We have an unwritten law. Mercy rule in effect, running clock. Team ahead with two timeouts left. Team trying to score one more time ....

There shall be no allowed timeouts used and there shall be no more scores ....... It's amazing how many holds suddenly appear ....

Had one coach screaming at me after the White Hat had shaken his head to disallow any more timeouts in the 45-0 drumming of an opponent. "I called time out ! I called time out !"
"Coach you can yell all you wish, only one person on this field grants time out, and you ain't it" "That's absolute Bull IT and you know it!" FLAG ! "That's one way to get a time out Coach, want to try for another?"     10 year olds on the sidelines....

So after the mark off, he calls a long pass for his offense .... Pass thrown deep (for 10 year olds) flag down in the backfield. Pass complete for a touchdown .... coming back for the hold .... "Absolute Bull $ !!!! You guys are cheating !" FLAG "And that ends your day Coach"
Coach left .... and we stood in the middle of the field watching the last two minutes run off the clock. Assistant comes up to me and asks. "Why were we preventing from scoring?" "It's called sportsmanship, if you don't have it, we enforce it."

You did this???  Coaches sometimes call time outs in these situations to get their subs in.  You have no idea why they're calling it, but they're rarely rubbing it in.  It is none of your business why they need time outs or how much they want to score.

[Harry]

I respectfully disagree.  I would never deny a TO in a varsity game.  I might try to quickly talk the coach out of it, or make him ask 2 or 3 times and pretend that I just didn't hear him.  But in a 10 year old game...we are often the only rational adults in the joint.  If it's 50-0 in a pop warner game, it's time to go get a coke and go home.

That's none of our business.  He may be using time outs to get subs in.  He may be using them to give his kids a break in the heat.  But ultimately, it's none of our business what he's calling them for.

[jjseikel]

Lighten up Harry. The 2 posts that you have responded to are 1) youth league, which most of the time has clueless coaches and 2) 45-0 and 50-0 blowouts that need concluded as quickly as possible. I have heard the excuse before about needing to get subs in and quite frankly, that's BS. With the score like it is and usually limited numbers of players, the "coach" has had ample opportunities to get all his subs in. I have done similar to yarnnelg and blindref757, have not felt badly and was often commended.

[Harry]

Lighten up Harry. The 2 posts that you have responded to are 1) youth league, which most of the time has clueless coaches and 2) 45-0 and 50-0 blowouts that need concluded as quickly as possible. I have heard the excuse before about needing to get subs in and quite frankly, that's BS. With the score like it is and usually limited numbers of players, the "coach" has had ample opportunities to get all his subs in. I have done similar to yarnnelg and blindref757, have not felt badly and was often commended.

I don't think I'm being overly serious about this.  I just truly believe that it's none of our business to get involved in how coaches want to use time outs.  The conversation that the official above had is beyond what we're supposed to be doing.  It's not BS that coaches want to get their subs in.  I've had to deal with these situations a few times in my short career.  There've been a few game where coaches have called time out when they realize they will not get their subs in correctly.  In some of those cases the team has gotten hit with illegal substitution penalties because they screwed up the substitution.  In another case, the winning team didn't want us to kill the clock because it was a rare opportunity to allow his subs to play.  And they didn't run up the score.  The game went 7-7 the rest of the way including a few turn overs.

I understand that officials are concerned with sportsmanship.  Sportsmanship is part of the rules, but it's also none of our business to tell the coaches how to coach and to deny them rights bestowed by the rules.  Time outs are the ultimate right.

[BIG UMP]

Harry and JJ,

You are both right.  I have given extended time outs during blowouts so that the coaches could come in and get their subs lined up and a little coaching carried out. 

However,  I have also seen a hold when a coach calls a timeout in a blowout and then coaches his starters concerning a pass or trick play.

This using our brains.  If the coaches are going to work with subs, let them.  If they are going to do something to demean their opponent they must carry out the play perfectly.  No I will not keep a coach from calling a timeout but I will know what he is doing.

[AlUpstateNY]

I can't argue with what you say, Harry, but you might also consider that not all coaches at the youth football level, always,  have best intentions in mind.  The requirements that all players play a certain number of downs is not intended to allow coaches to get their secondary players into the game, when it's long been decided.  

Unfortunately, there are times when the officials are the only clear thinking adults present and rational, mature judgment needs to be applied.  When such a situation arises, it has absolutely nothing to do with, "it's for the kids" and is all about some adult with an axe to grind, an ego to polish or to cover up for not allowing his secondary players to play meaningful downs.  

In most situations, Time outs are the exclusive decision of coaches and we no input in how or when they are used, nor should we want to get involved.  However, when you are certain they are being used to abuse a situation, you have to decide whether you are going to abett the abuse.  Of course you have to be willing to defend your actions, but when you're right, doing what's right usually has less consequence that allowing something that's obviously wrong to go forward.  It boils down to you making a management decision, that may not appeal to everyone on circumstances they may be unique to the situation you are dealing with.

[yarnnelg]

I enjoy being raked over the coals ....

These are not times in which wanna be John Gruden's are trying to get their last nose pickers on the field. These are times in which the coaches are hell bent on trying to rack up that one last score before the game ends. The majority of the time we get a thank you from the Administrators and sometimes all of the Coaches. I've heard the Coach in question finally give up and tell his players, "They aren't going to let us score so take a knee and end it ..." We've had White Hats and Umpires openly discuss who will throw the holding flag to stop that last long pass with seconds to go and a 50-0 score on the board.

If playoff spots were tabulated by points scored, then I'd be against our trying to implement sportsmanship .... but just to rub someone's nose in it .... give me a break. 

[Steve Brown]

Tough spot here.  I agree with everyone.

Somehow, though I keep thinking of this:  in situations like the ones we're describing, the kids are going to learn some lesson, whether we want them to or not.  By trying to step in and control the progress of the game -- even though I would be doing it for the right reason -- I'm afraid that I might unwittingly teach them that sportsmanship is something to be externally enforced rather than something that is an outgrowth of one's own character. 

Of course, in other settings we enforce appropriate sportsmanship, but usually with regard to the specific actions of an individual, not as an effort to force an entire team to behave in some manner or another. 

'Tis a conundrum. I believe that I shall ponder it further, while calling upon the assistance of the sacred essence of the blessed hops. 

[busman]

More importantly, who gets the 50 bucks?

[jimbulger]

Tough spot here.  I agree with everyone.

Somehow, though I keep thinking of this:  in situations like the ones we're describing, the kids are going to learn some lesson, whether we want them to or not.  By trying to step in and control the progress of the game -- even though I would be doing it for the right reason -- I'm afraid that I might unwittingly teach them that sportsmanship is something to be externally enforced rather than something that is an outgrowth of one's own character. 

Of course, in other settings we enforce appropriate sportsmanship, but usually with regard to the specific actions of an individual, not as an effort to force an entire team to behave in some manner or another. 

'Tis a conundrum. I believe that I shall ponder it further, while calling upon the assistance of the sacred essence of the blessed hops. 

I always call on the sacred essence of the blessed hops. 

[LarryW60]

It's one thing to call the game closer to the rule book than is usual for that level of play, it is quite another to be manufacturing fouls because your sense of sportsmanship is offended.  I agree with whomever posted it earlier... this kind of officiating makes the rest of us look just as bad as you.

There shall be no allowed timeouts used and there shall be no more scores ....... It's amazing how many holds suddenly appear ....

In our area, a person using this "law" would fall under a different "law" - Thou shalt not work in this league again.

[yarnnelg]

As I've never thrown a flag on any manufactured call .... I report it as I've seen it done. My flags come out for a clear reason .... I let the White Hat take the gruff for what I see as phantom calls ....

[VALJ]

Not to try and bring up the dead horse for more beating, but just wanted to throw my 2 pennies in.  (Feel free to tell me that I'm due some change back.  )

Fortunately for us in VA, we did institute a mercy rule a few years back.  In the second half, if the game reaches a 35-point or more lead, we go to a running clock (only times the clock stops are for a score, a time out, and injuries, IIRC).  Now, we have been known in the last couple minutes of those 31-0 games to make sure that they player's forward progress was stopped in bounds.  I've also had white hats tell me "let me stop the clock for first downs" instead of killing the clock immediately as we normally do, and we've been known to walk the ball in to the umpire for him to set it rather than toss it in using the triangle to relay it.  I can't say I've ever seen a phantom foul called, though I've heard of them, though, and I'll confess that I've thought about it but never done it.

[rattus rattus reffus]

As I've never thrown a flag on any manufactured call .... I report it as I've seen it done. My flags come out for a clear reason ....

I used to have the problem of never getting them out at all:

Early in my first season at UK senior level I was working LJ. Up until that point I had spent most of my time as Umpire and wasn't 100% comfortable back on the wing. The home team were getting thrashed pretty badly and had spent most of their time going three and out.

During the course of the game the offensive coach on my sideline offered to lend me his clipboard and play book if I let him borrow my flag and whistle on the grounds that we would both get more use out of them if we swapped...

As it happened I saw him again at the end of the season when I was again LJ on his side and he shook my hand at the end of the game and said that I had called a good game, but hoped I would be heading back into the middle soon "where you like to be". What a lovely backhanded compliment 

[AlUpstateNY]

Sounds like the coach was Irish.  Being able to, "tell someone to go to hell, and make them look forward to taking the trip" is a skill reserved for the Irish.

[Flyby24]

I was officiating a youth league game (7 & 8 yr. olds) and one of the teams is from one of the reservations out here in AZ. They barely have enough money to purchase equipment, but these kids LOVE the game. The team they were playing was from the more wealthy part of the valley and were ahead by four or five touchdowns at the end of the fourth quarter. The coach from the wealthier team called a timeout with less than a minute left in the game. At first I rolled my eyes...it's 95 degrees out here and you wanna prolong the agony for these kids!

But then the coach did something I will remember forever. His team was on defense. He came out to speak to all of us officials and told us he instructed his players not to tackle the runner of the Native American team. And if they did could we please throw a flag and make up something to give them another chance. We (the crew) kinda chuckled but agreed.

The next play the Native team handed the ball to the runner and he ran his heart out while the kids on defense chased after him pretending to trip and stumble all the way. When the runner crossed the goal line I rang up the touchdown. The other 10 players on offense ran down the field and dogpiled the runner in the endzone. the game ended, and the coach for the Native team walked over to the other coach and thanked him.

The score didn't matter to these kids...they played because they love the game. They will always remember the touchdown they scored on that one Saturday!

 

[GoodScout]

Had similar situation in a varsity game, without the score. At halftime, the home team was leading 65-0. (As Umpire, I'd already made the post-score 60-yard dash 10 times!) At halftime, the home coach busts into our locker room and literally begs us to start throwing flags on his team to slow them down so they won't score again. We politely said we couldn't make up fouls, but we appreciated how he felt. His was a fairly affluent Catholic school while the visitor was a city team made up of players their coach told me spoke 8 different native languages amonst them.

After the half, we noticed that while the home defense still played tough, the home offense's runner would run into the ground right after crossing the LOS. They never made another first down, and we did what we could by keeping the clock running. I'll never forget how hurt the home coach was at the thought that his team might be poisoning the love of the game for the opponents -- class guy.