FC signal after catch in EZ

[dammitbobby]

Off the wall scenario but can't wrap my head around the enforcement.

B88 catches a scrimmage kick deep in his own EZ.  After realizing he cannot escape the EZ, he gives a fair catch signal to prevent being tackled in the EZ.  After the kick (but before the FC signal) A34 commits a FMM foul on B54 at the B20.  Ball is whistled dead due to the invalid FC signal.

By rule, the ball is dead immediately after the FC signal (we had a thread about this topic not too far in the past but I can't find it).  I presume that even during a run, after the catch, the FC signal is still valid.  So the ball is dead in B's endzone, and B is responsible for it being there, so = safety.  (I think?)

But the foul.  It's a live-ball foul, so B can elect to mark off 15 from previous spot and rekick, or if they decline, the safety stands?  Is there any way for B to get the ball at the 20 in this scenario?

I think sometimes I get too wrapped up in overthinking enforcments.  I suspect this is one of those times.

[Clear Lake ref]

I’ll start.

A fair catch signal, valid or invalid, exists during a kick. Once a ball has been possessed the kick is over.

If the player fails to advance, gives himself up, etc in this play, the ball is dead in the EZ with the succeeding spot being the 20. The ball is dead in the end zone after a kick and was never brought into the field of play. Therefore it is there due to team A.

The foul would then be enforced at the 20 so 1/10 from the 35.

[dammitbobby]

OK, I follow that -  to apoint.  In this instance, the signal was given after the kick was caught - we are now in a running play, not a kick play.  What(if anything) does that change?  Or are you saying we would ignore any FC signal given after the catch is completed?  Really wish I could find the thread for this from a while back.


Change the scenario to B catches the ball at the 2, retreats to the EZ, then gives FC signal?

The discussion point I'm interested in (what got me to thinking about this) is how long after a catch, can a runner give a FC signal and still have the rule protection of the ball being whistled dead?  Is there a scenario where we as officials would just say, WTH is he giving a FC signal for, after running 10-15 yards, at what point do we say that we just keep playing?  Or is it always and forever whenever there's a FC signal after the catch, it's always dead no matter what?

[Bulldog75]

The invalid signal ends the play, like you said.

It's a touchback and not a safety, because the kick is still the impetus for the ball being in the endzone.  Team A kicked the ball into the endzone.

A touchback on a scrimmage kick is spotted at the 20.

The personal foul penalty is assessed from the end of the play.

So I have Team B ball, 1/10 from their 35.


Here is a post I had awhile back asking about invalid signals, and Elvis gave an excellent explanation.  That might be the one you're thinking of.

http://www.refstripes.com/forum/index.php?topic=16240.0;topicseen

[JasonTX]

AR 6-5-3 IV covers this situation.  First on the point in your play as already stated by others, it's a touchback.  With that aside you are wanting to know about how much time could elapse until perhaps we would not consider this rule.  It's one thing if he stays in the end zone and gives the signal as a means to "gives up".  But what if he catches the ball and then runs into the field of play and for whatever reason gives the signal.  The way I read that AR is that he catches the ball and then signals.  Almost as if it's all in one moment and no other football acts have separated the two.  In other words, he forgot to signal before the ball arrived so he's quickly doing it after he caught it because he doesn't want to run.

[ElvisLives]

While I am flattered by Bulldog's compliment, I have to admit that my post in that other thread didn't actually address the issue at hand, i.e., the timing of a signal made by a ball carrier following a catch or recovery of a legally kicked ball. To be truthful, we don't have positive direction on this issue. I am with Jason in that, if it happens virtually immediately after completing the catch/recovery, this rule applies, i.e., the ball is dead, no advance is allowed, and he does not have fair catch protection.
In a case of a player completing a catch or recovery of a legally kicked ball, then taking a few steps before he encounters opponents, when he makes a signal, and gives up, I'd rule an invalid signal, the ball is dead, no advance is allowed, and he does not have fair catch protection.
In a case of a player completing a catch or recovery of a legally kicked ball, then advancing beyond the first 'wave' of opponents that he encounters, and then throws his hand up like a fair catch signal - whether he stops first, or continues to advance while signaling - I believe I would judge that his signal is nothing, the ball is alive, and he may be contacted in any legal manner.

If it ever actually happens, I'm sure we'll get a rule edit/change, or at least another AR.

[bossman72]

OK, I follow that -  to apoint.  In this instance, the signal was given after the kick was caught - we are now in a running play, not a kick play.  What(if anything) does that change?  Or are you saying we would ignore any FC signal given after the catch is completed?  Really wish I could find the thread for this from a while back.


Change the scenario to B catches the ball at the 2, retreats to the EZ, then gives FC signal?

The discussion point I'm interested in (what got me to thinking about this) is how long after a catch, can a runner give a FC signal and still have the rule protection of the ball being whistled dead?  Is there a scenario where we as officials would just say, WTH is he giving a FC signal for, after running 10-15 yards, at what point do we say that we just keep playing?  Or is it always and forever whenever there's a FC signal after the catch, it's always dead no matter what?

First, there is no foul for invalid signals. The ball is simply dead and the returner gets no protection.
Second, Team A put the ball in the EZ, not Team B.  The result of the play is a touchback (the same as if he took a knee).
Tack on the FMM from the 20.  B 1/10 @ B35

[JasonTX]

First, there is no foul for invalid signals. The ball is simply dead and the returner gets no protection.
Second, Team A put the ball in the EZ, not Team B.  The result of the play is a touchback (the same as if he took a knee).
Tack on the FMM from the 20.  B 1/10 @ B35

What are your thoughts on his new scenario?

[bossman72]

What are your thoughts on his new scenario?

Result of the play is a safety.  Penalize from the goal line.  B 1/10 @ B15

[ElvisLives]

The foul occurred during a free kick play. That’s previous spot enforcement, which would cancel the safety, and repeat the kickoff after the penalty at previous spot.
Team B could elect to enforce the penalty at spot where the dead ball belongs to them, which, IMHO, is the B-20, for the free kick, taking the free kick to the B-35. But, that is not 100% clear in the rules. But, where else would it be?
The goal line is only used as an enforcement spot for fouls that occur during running plays after a change of team possession. That’s not the case, here.

[Kalle]

The foul occurred during a free kick play.

Actually, no. "After the kick (but before the FC signal) A34 commits a FMM foul on B54 at the B20."

[bossman72]

The foul occurred during a free kick play. That’s previous spot enforcement, which would cancel the safety, and repeat the kickoff after the penalty at previous spot.
Team B could elect to enforce the penalty at spot where the dead ball belongs to them, which, IMHO, is the B-20, for the free kick, taking the free kick to the B-35. But, that is not 100% clear in the rules. But, where else would it be?
The goal line is only used as an enforcement spot for fouls that occur during running plays after a change of team possession. That’s not the case, here.

I thought in the play that the foul happened after the kick.  Maybe I'm reading the wrong scenario.

[lonnieritch1981]

I agree...1st and 10 for b @ the B35.

[ElvisLives]

"After the kick (but before the FC signal) A34 commits a FMM foul on B54 at the B20."

OK, yes, it was a scrimmage kick, not a free kick. My mistake, but no difference. And, I'll admit that the description doesn't specifically say that the Team A foul occurred before the ball was caught by B88. I 'interpreted' the description to mean that the foul occurred during the kick play portion of the down. If the foul occurred after B88 caught the ball, then it occurred during a running play, and those special enforcement spot rules come into play. For a catch in the field of play, and a retreat into the end zone (no momentum), the natural result of the down is a safety. But the penalty for the FMM foul (after the catch) would be enforced from the goal line, canceling the safety, and giving B the ball at the B-15, 1/10. For a catch in the end zone, that's a touchback, and the penalty would be enforced at the B-20.

[dammitbobby]

I think it's wild that we can have such different outcomes, with such tiny variables as whether or not it was in the EZ, he retreated there, valid signal/invalid signal, etc...  I don't really consider myself a rules nerd but these weird situations like this I find completely fascinating.