Participation

[sczeebra]

If a player has drawn the attention of an official (B's 12th man coming on to the field during the during play) has he influenced this play? Or does he need to do more?

[younggun]

12th man. As soon as he is on the field it is a flag. Video will show that and you wont be able to talk your way out of it. Player goes OOB and comes back in we can fudge that to a point that just because he went OOB and came back in does not mean he influenced that play... ie.. WR goes OOB on opposite side of field as play is going the other way.

[sczeebra]

Flag for sure, but substitution or participation? Is there a point where substitution becomes participation or always participation!

[bama_stripes]

If B12 influences the play in any way (including drawing an A player's attention), it's IP.  Otherwise, IS.

[younggun]

not if he comes on after the ball has been made live.

[dch]

rules are clear:
3-7-6  illegal sub --  enters field but not participate  --  5yds
9-6-4  illegal participation -- anyone enters the field and participates during the down  --  15 yds

[KDJBBBJ]

That illegal participation can also be the 11th player if he enters during the down.

[Ralph Damren]

IMHO,Rule of :
   If a sub enters the field during the play and (1) blocks, (2) tackles, (3) draws the attention of an opponent = IP.

   If a sub enters the field during the play and stands there with a "whoops, I shouldn't be out here" look and no opponent notices = IS.

   IF we noticed, we  and chat with fellow crewmates  before announcing the crime committed. Remember IS fouls of this nature are with succeeding spot enforcement.

[maybrefguy]

Ralph - just so we are clear - illegal subsitution, if caught after the fact, would be assessed at the succeeding spot - even if there is a change of possession?

[ncwingman]

Ralph - just so we are clear - illegal subsitution, if caught after the fact, would be assessed at the succeeding spot - even if there is a change of possession?

Illegal substitution where a player enters the field during the down, but does not participate is a non-player foul, which are enforced like dead ball fouls -- not dissimilar to unsportsmanlike conduct.

The 12th man unsuccessfully running of the field prior to the snap is a live ball foul, where clean hands or B declining A's fouls would have to apply.

So -- yes.

[Ralph Damren]

NCwingman nailed it. The 12th man, a big ole' Bubba, wheezing,grunting, and unable to get off before the snap = foul at snap = previous spot enforcement (3-7-4) . A big ole' Bubba wanders out on the field to : (a) get a better view, (2) thought he should be in, quickly realized he shouldn't, no one noticed --except  and the prom queen (he just lost his post-game date).  3-7-6 RATIONALE : The foul had no baring whatsoever on the result of the play = succeeding spot enforcement and treated as a non-player foul. Prom queen's rationale : A player that goes further than should would not be an acceptable date because of her proper upbringing.