5-Yard Facemask

[NVFOA_Ump]

4th and 6 at the 50 yard line. A-22 takes a hand off in the backfield at the A45 yard line:

A.  where blitzing linebacker B-59 grabs for the ball and inadvertently gets his face-mask (no turn and/or pull).  B-59 quickly releases A-22's face-mask who then runs to the B45 yard-line where he is tackled.  We've got flags down (R and H) and both have a 5 yard face-mask foul.

B.  during the run at the B49 yard line B-59 grabs for the ball and inadvertently gets his face-mask (no turn and/or pull).  B-59 quickly releases A-22's face-mask who then runs to the B-45 yard-line where he is tackled.  We've got flags down (R and H) and both have a 5 yard face-mask foul.

What are the possible enforcements for A and B?

[bama_stripes]

In both cases, the enforcement is 5 yards from EOR.
(Did you mean to make one of these plays a FM foul by A?)

[FLAHL]

The basic spot is the end of the run in both cases.  Add 5 yards to the end of the run and it’s a first down for A in both cases.

[NVFOA_Ump]

In both cases, the enforcement is 5 yards from EOR.
(Did you mean to make one of these plays a FM foul by A?)

No, was just trying to confirm that in both cases this would be a tack-on end of run enforcement.  Had some after game "did we get it right" discussion on this yesterday related to the differences (if any) of these plays with facemask fouls of 5 yards vs. 15 yards.

[Magician]

The key to remember is the basic spot for a running play is the end of the run. It doesn't matter where the defensive foul occurs. When matters if the ball ever becomes loose but where doesn't.

[NVFOA_Ump]

The key to remember is the basic spot for a running play is the end of the run. It doesn't matter where the defensive foul occurs. When matters if the ball ever becomes loose but where doesn't.

So to build further on the question we have:

4th and 6 at the 50 yard line. A-22 muffs a backward pass in the backfield at the A45 yard line and immediately picks the ball up on the first bounce (a loose ball play?), where blitzing linebacker B-59 also grabs for the loose ball and inadvertently gets his face-mask (no turn and/or pull).  B-59 quickly releases A-22's face-mask who then runs to the B45 yard-line where he is tackled.  We've got flags down (R and H) and both have a 5 yard face-mask foul.

Does the "loose ball play" have any impact on the penalty enforcement?

[dch]

What type of play was in progress at the time of the foul?  Did anything (loose ball) happen after that would change the type of play (loose ball behind neutral zone).

In your last example the ball was in player possession - a running play was in progress.  That didn't change for the rest of the down.  Therefore, the basic spot is the end of the run.

[CalhounLJ]

So to build further on the question we have:

4th and 6 at the 50 yard line. A-22 muffs a backward pass in the backfield at the A45 yard line and immediately picks the ball up on the first bounce (a loose ball play?), where blitzing linebacker B-59 also grabs for the loose ball and inadvertently gets his face-mask (no turn and/or pull).  B-59 quickly releases A-22's face-mask who then runs to the B45 yard-line where he is tackled.  We've got flags down (R and H) and both have a 5 yard face-mask foul.

Does the "loose ball play" have any impact on the penalty enforcement?

The backward pass in this play is a loose-ball play which ended when A recovered. If the foul happened before the recovery, the basic spot is the previous spot.  A can decline the fm and take the result of the play or accept the penalty and replay the down.


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[NVFOA_Ump]

The backward pass in this play is a loose-ball play which ended when A recovered. If the foul happened before the recovery, the basic spot is the previous spot.  A can decline the fm and take the result of the play or accept the penalty and replay the down.

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So if the timing of the foul and the recovery is virtually simultaneous we have to decide using our best judgment which came first?  If the foul occurred just prior to possession and control we have a very different result then if the foul occurred just after possession and control? That's a really tough sell to the team A coach.  And an even tougher judgment when the calling officials have a clear look at the facemask foul, but cannot see the actual recovery or even which player recovered it until well after the recovery.

[CalhounLJ]

Tiiming is critical in several situations. This is one of those. Also, I know several rules that are hard to sell to coaches.  Especially the ones who watch football on Saturday and Sunday.


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[Magician]

So if the timing of the foul and the recovery is virtually simultaneous we have to decide using our best judgment which came first?  If the foul occurred just prior to possession and control we have a very different result then if the foul occurred just after possession and control? That's a really tough sell to the team A coach.  And an even tougher judgment when the calling officials have a clear look at the facemask foul, but cannot see the actual recovery or even which player recovered it until well after the recovery.

It would be no different using NCAA rules either. The terminology is different but if the foul (obviously not this action because it's not a foul in NCAA) occurred before or after the recovery also impacts the enforcement spot (previous spot or end of run).