10 or 12 on the field

[refjeff]

Do we tell them?

Our crew has started our off-season meetings.  We like to watch random game video (not our crew) and discuss mechanics, situations, what-ifs, philosophy, etc.

The first play we watch K has 10 on the field for kick off.   In Ohio the BJ hands the ball to the kicker and has primary responsibility for counting K and checking to see that K is in a legal formation.  Before he hands the ball to the kicker should the BJ tell him, "Count your players."  I think no.  K has put themselves at a disadvantage, but it's not a foul.  Maybe after the play we tell the coach, "You only had 10,"  and give them a chance to fix it next time.

But I'm not completely confident.  Maybe for the sake of having a better game we should tell them.  Thoughts?

What if K, or R, has 12?  We are definitely going to tell them, "Count your players."  The same is true if K is not in a legal formation.  We are going to tell them.  We are big believers in preventative officiating.  If we can talk someone out of committing a foul we want to do it.  To us, part of game management means only throwing flags that are necessary.    Keep it safe & fair, but keep it moving.

Thoughts?

[CalhounLJ]

Right or wrong, we never kick with 12, but if there’s 10 we don’t say anything.


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[HLinNC]

It has been procedure in both associations that I have worked to never allow a kick-off to commence with other than the correct number of players.

[brettdj]

Never kick with the wrong number.  As an H/L I will let the coach know he has the wrong # of players" Count your
Players"  It only helps with keeping the communication open. 

[bama_stripes]

It has been procedure in both associations that I have worked to never allow a kick-off to commence with other than the correct number of players.

Same here (although I can’t figure out why we worry about 10.)  Why is a kickoff more sacrosanct than a regular scrimmage play or kick?

[bossman72]

Same here (although I can’t figure out why we worry about 10.)  Why is a kickoff more sacrosanct than a regular scrimmage play or kick?

I just assumed because we have lots of "down" time on a kickoff, so we should get it right.  I always wondered that too.

[CalhounLJ]

Technically, letting them play with 10 is "right." Playing with 12 is the problem.

[AlUpstateNY]

These are HS kids (or younger),and we're part of the Adult supervision assigned to the contest to help assure the game is played as intended.  Why would you allow them to start something ill prepared?

For a Kickoff, you're there, in the center of the field within earshot of at least one player, what's the harm requesting that player, (every time) "Count your players, and tell me when you have 11" to help avoid a lot of unnecessary HORSE HOCKEY? 

Under "Prerequisites for Good Officiating" in the "NHFS Football Game Officials Manual" it suggests, " Game Officials must have a football sense that supersedes the technical application of the rules so the game goes smoothly.  Game Officials are expected to exercise good judgment in applying the rules....... "Preventive Officiating facilitates the smooth conduct of a game within the rules. The good Official, by action and/or words, can frequently prevent certain fouls from happening.......Routine checking of game equipment and counting players on every play are critical to successful officiating.  Aiding players lining up following a safety or other free kicks is also acceptable preventive technique."
* Game Officials Manual, pp 5-7

[toma]

Before handing the ball to the kicker ask  "Is the kick-off team ready" "Are you sure"  and delay giving him the ball until he turns and checks/counts.
Its not our job to coach.
Had a problem in a game. My HL told R "Coach you only have 10" on a punt.  Coach doesn't count himself to confirm and send out another player.
Play goes off and on we have 12 during a punt.

[CalhounLJ]

I agree with that philosophy 100%, which is why, if they have 12, we hold everything until they realize what's up. 12 creates an illegal formation. 10 on the field at the kickoff is not illegal. Not wise, but not illegal either. As has already been mentioned, we don't allow that on any other type of play. If they have 10 in the formation on a scrimmage down, we don't say anything either. Granted, we don't notify the players we have 12 either, but we also don't let them run a play with 12. We blow it and throw it if possible. If not, we flag it for the illegal act it is. If anything, we should treat kickoffs the same. IMO, the reference to preventative officiating in RE: to lining up for kickoffs is making sure the players on the field are where they are supposed to be.

[Stinterp]

The Official with the kicker should say to him "count your players".  We should not hold up the R's ready for play so a team can get 11 players on the field, but we should give them the time to make the correction.

[js in sc]

The Official with the kicker should say to him "count your players".  We should not hold up the R's ready for play so a team can get 11 players on the field, but we should give them the time to make the correction.

As an umpire, in SC the umpire is with the kicker, I always ask the kicker to count his players.  If he has 10 and does not correct it, I let them play.  If he has 12 and does not correct it, we flag them before the kick.  This is not giving an advantage.  It is giving the kicker, who is responsible for the count, an opportunity to get it right.  Even if there are 11, I still ask.  This is not helping them along.  It is just a good habit.  Also, the BJ asks the receiver to count R as well.  Yes, you can not do this on a scrimmage down because none of us are in close contact with a player to talk to him.  You can, when confirming the count with your referee or others say, "I have 10 or I got 12".  We are not there to throw a flag or allow unequal situations.  We are there to help the kids play.

[BIG UMP]

Our association philosophy has always been we free kick with 11.  I'll admit I have kicked with 10 when I tell a receiver to count two or three times and he never does its his and his coaches error.   I'd say my philosophy is try real hard to kick with 11.

[Curious]

NEVER LET A KICK OFF HAPPEN WITHOUT THE PROPER NUMBER OF PLAYERS ON BOTH TEAMS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This brings up a question I've been kicking around since the new rules came out however. (Remember: no rules or case books yet) Since there is no longer a requirement for A to have 7 men on the LOS, that means the FED figures a team could actually play with as few as 6 (5 players numbered 50-79 on the line with one player in position to take a snap)! So, does that now mean a team could actually start a game with fewer than 11 players (Rule 1-1-3)?

 

[Stinterp]

Team A can actually legally snap with only 5 linemen (50-79) on the field.  A legal snap does not have to be snapped to anyone. A snap only has to touch the ground before touching a lineman.

[js in sc]

NEVER LET A KICK OFF HAPPEN WITHOUT THE PROPER NUMBER OF PLAYERS ON BOTH TEAMS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This brings up a question I've been kicking around since the new rules came out however. (Remember: no rules or case books yet) Since there is no longer a requirement for A to have 7 men on the LOS, that means the FED figures a team could actually play with as few as 6 (5 players numbered 50-79 on the line with one player in position to take a snap)! So, does that now mean a team could actually start a game with fewer than 11 players (Rule 1-1-3)?

 

Rule 1-1-3 says the teams will begin the games with 11.  They can continue with less if needsd.  The question is: although there is no requirement for 7 on the line, there is still a requirement to have 4 players on either side of the kicker for a free kick.  Doesn't this mean you need at least 9 to continue?

[ncwingman]

Team A can actually legally snap with only 5 linemen (50-79) on the field.  A legal snap does not have to be snapped to anyone. A snap only has to touch the ground before touching a lineman.

It however is a foul to have a planned loose ball in the vicinity of the snapper... so he'd have to get some good distance on it to avoid that.

[ncwingman]

NEVER LET A KICK OFF HAPPEN WITHOUT THE PROPER NUMBER OF PLAYERS ON BOTH TEAMS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This brings up a question I've been kicking around since the new rules came out however. (Remember: no rules or case books yet) Since there is no longer a requirement for A to have 7 men on the LOS, that means the FED figures a team could actually play with as few as 6 (5 players numbered 50-79 on the line with one player in position to take a snap)! So, does that now mean a team could actually start a game with fewer than 11 players (Rule 1-1-3)?

 

The game starts with a free kick, not a scrimmage down. The number of players on the line is irrelevant for 1-1-3 enforcement.

[Ralph Damren]

Remember, guys, we need at least 4 players on each side of the kicker. What if the missing player was to be the 4th player  ? . IMHO : "Kicker, count up your guys to be sure you've got the right number  "is good preventive officiating. I prevents #11 running on late with confusion to follow. Confusion is always better if prevented  . This once occurred .....

Me (noticing 12 on K) asked : "Kicker, count your guys."

Kicker (counting teammates) : "1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11..'spect we're set."

Me : "Don't you want to count yourself  ?"

Kicker : "Ayuh, 'spect so ; coach , we gotta git someone off  ..."

......and the band played on.

[Magician]

I believe making sure there are 11 on both sides of a free kick is one of those philosophies that comes down from the NFL. It's just a good practice. A free kick is the only play that doesn't come immediately after another play (save time outs, penalty enforcement, etc.). If we count 10 or 12 on offense we'll often say something to a player or coach if they are within ear shot so we don't just do it for free kicks. The difference is we don't hold up anything if they only have 10 or 12.

[TampaSteve]

not agreeing or disagreeing with 'count your players' theory. - and preventative officiating always helps.

 
BUT do we say it any other play? if not, how are free kicks any different than the other plays, i.e. COP plays?
Likewise, is anyone telling R to count their players? - seems only fair if we tell K we should tell R.
If we tell K to count their players and they do fix the issue, have we subsequently given K an unfair advantage that otherwise would have resulted in 10 or 12?

Not soliciting a response, just items to chew on.

[centexsports]

Way tooooooo much discussion on a bland subject.   How about this for a solution.   

Referee to coach in pregame:   I know you have two coaches watching every position on every play.   We would like you to dedicate one for each official pre-snap.   This is our 11 man signal.   If you have a coach notice that one official doesn't give a signal for your team, count your guys immediately.

THAT IS PREVENTIVE OFFICIATING!

[KWH]

Wow! Much ado about a simple task!

I don't blow the RFP until both Teams have 11
B counts K and corrects Team K (if they are incorrect) before giving the ball to the kicker!
R, U, and H count R and correct Team R (if they are incorrect) and they don't raise there hands until Team R has 11.

If some coach questions your actions your response is quite simple; "Coach we will do the exact same thing for your team!" Most coaches appreciate that statement!

Don't let them kickoff until each team has 11! There is no excuse for doing so!

[Magician]

Wow! Much ado about a simple task!

I don't blow the RFP until both Teams have 11
B counts K and corrects Team K (if they are incorrect) before giving the ball to the kicker!
R, U, and H count R and correct Team R (if they are incorrect) and they don't raise there hands until Team R has 11.

If some coach questions your actions your response is quite simple; "Coach we will do the exact same thing for your team!" Most coaches appreciate that statement!

Don't let them kickoff until each team has 11! There is no excuse for doing so!

Another example of a common mechanic done at every level. Why should HS officials try to be different?

[ncwingman]

Rule 1-1-3 says the teams will begin the games with 11.  They can continue with less if needsd.  The question is: although there is no requirement for 7 on the line, there is still a requirement to have 4 players on either side of the kicker for a free kick.  Doesn't this mean you need at least 9 to continue?

This isn't a problem unless they score, and one would hope (?) that the team with fewer than 9 players wouldn't score. However, if they do, you do run into a bit of an issue -- the foul is a dead ball foul, which means that it's not eligible for the tack on enforcement. If it was a live ball foul, you could add the 5 yards to the end of the run and just keep going. This also means they could never recover an onside kick, or recover a fumble after the kick off....

However, is this a case where you'd philosophically argue 'no advantage gained' and not call the foul?