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Author Topic: Facemask Foul - Enforcement Spot  (Read 1586 times)

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Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Facemask Foul - Enforcement Spot
« on: September 19, 2022, 01:41:38 PM »
A Run/Pass Option play from one of my games yesterday - 3rd & 10 on the A20 yard line.  A is in shotgun formation and QB-A9 gets the snap and immediately rolls right where he is tackled by the facemask at the A14 yard line by a blitzing LB.   What's the correct enforcement?

And this version - 3rd & 10 on the A20 yard line.  A is in shotgun formation and QB-A9 gets the snap and immediately rolls right where he is grabbed by the facemask at the A14 yard line by a blitzing LB but manages to pass the ball OB just beyond the NZ before he is down.  QB was outside the FBZ extended when he released the ball.   What's the correct enforcement?
« Last Edit: September 19, 2022, 01:45:58 PM by NVFOA_Ump »
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Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Facemask Foul - Enforcement Spot
« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2022, 02:02:26 PM »
By defination, this is a running play, enforcement spot is from A's 14 resulting in 3/1 from A's 29. IF he had fumbled, it becomes a loose ball play with previous spot enforcement = 1/10 @ A's 35. I've lobbied hard for several years to have all B fouls, when play ends behind LOS to be enforced to previous spot. Several agree ONLY IF all A fouls (with some exceptions) be enforced from previous spot if their foul occurred behind the LOS. I'm strongly opposed to that.
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Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Facemask Foul - Enforcement Spot
« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2022, 02:06:03 PM »
Quote from: Ralph Damren on September 19, 2022, 02:02:26 PM
By defination, this is a running play, enforcement spot is from A's 14 resulting in 3/1 from A's 29. IF he had fumbled, it becomes a loose ball play with previous spot enforcement = 1/10 @ A's 35. I've lobbied hard for several years to have all B fouls, when play ends behind LOS to be enforced to previous spot. Several agree ONLY IF all A fouls (with some exceptions) be enforced from previous spot if their foul occurred behind the LOS. I'm strongly opposed to that.

So given that the 2nd play where he dumped the ball OB would be previous spot and roughing the passer?
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Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Facemask Foul - Enforcement Spot
« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2022, 03:36:46 PM »
Quote from: NVFOA_Ump on September 19, 2022, 02:06:03 PM
So given that the 2nd play where he dumped the ball OB would be previous spot and roughing the passer?
Yes, where the pass was legal. In the first play, where there wasn't a pass, you couldn't have RTP w/AFD. Note you can't have RTP on an illegal forward pass so AFD wouldn't apply if the  QB hadn't been outside the FBZ or pass hadn't crossed the LOS. In that situation, the penalities would offset and replay the down.
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Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Facemask Foul - Enforcement Spot
« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2022, 06:45:33 AM »
Quote from: Ralph Damren on September 19, 2022, 03:36:46 PM
Yes, where the pass was legal. In the first play, where there wasn't a pass, you couldn't have RTP w/AFD. Note you can't have RTP on an illegal forward pass so AFD wouldn't apply if the  QB hadn't been outside the FBZ or pass hadn't crossed the LOS. In that situation, the penalities would offset and replay the down.

Thanks Ralph!  After 20+ years of NCAA rules the whole "loose ball play" concepts is very slowly sinking in.   ;D
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Online CalhounLJ

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Re: Facemask Foul - Enforcement Spot
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2022, 08:01:26 AM »
Quote from: NVFOA_Ump on September 20, 2022, 06:45:33 AM
Thanks Ralph!  After 20+ years of NCAA rules the whole "loose ball play" concepts is very slowly sinking in.   ;D

By far the most difficult concept for me to grasp was the "loose-ball play" aspect of penalty enforcement. I owe any success I've achieved in that area to Ralph. He was patient throughout that process, and a great teacher.
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Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Facemask Foul - Enforcement Spot
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2022, 12:25:20 PM »
Thanks, NVFOA & Calhoun, for the kind words. Just think that a loose ball play can ONLY occur behind the LOS and you'll have it mastered.  aWaRd
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Offline zebraken

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Re: Facemask Foul - Enforcement Spot
« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2022, 10:15:20 AM »
Thank you for this information. Just so I’m clear. The quarterback could drop back to pass, have his face mask pulled and twisted, break free and scramble for a few seconds or longer, throw a legal forward pass and we would have not only a face mask foul but also roughing the passer?
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Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Facemask Foul - Enforcement Spot
« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2022, 10:53:53 AM »
Quote from: zebraken on September 22, 2022, 10:15:20 AM
Thank you for this information. Just so I’m clear. The quarterback could drop back to pass, have his face mask pulled and twisted, break free and scramble for a few seconds or longer, throw a legal forward pass and we would have not only a face mask foul but also roughing the passer?
The way I read 10-4-4, RTP has to occur after the ball has been thrown. The FM would still be enforced as a loose ball foul with previous spot enforcement,
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Offline Curious

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Re: Facemask Foul - Enforcement Spot
« Reply #9 on: September 23, 2022, 10:14:51 AM »

 :!#
Quote from: Ralph Damren on September 22, 2022, 10:53:53 AM
The way I read 10-4-4, RTP has to occur after the ball has been thrown. The FM would still be enforced as a loose ball foul with previous spot enforcement,

Ralph, you're not suggesting BOTH the FM and RTP are enforced - right?
« Last Edit: September 23, 2022, 10:21:35 AM by Curious »
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Online CalhounLJ

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Re: Facemask Foul - Enforcement Spot
« Reply #10 on: September 23, 2022, 11:18:36 AM »
Quote from: Curious on September 23, 2022, 10:14:51 AM
:!#
Ralph, you're not suggesting BOTH the FM and RTP are enforced - right?

No I'm sure he's not. If the defender roughs the passer by a PF facemask, it's considered RTP only. Tack 15 on to the dead ball spot if that spot is beyond the Los with A in possession, otherwise 15 yds from previous spot and auto first.
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Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Facemask Foul - Enforcement Spot
« Reply #11 on: September 23, 2022, 12:04:14 PM »
Quote from: Curious on September 23, 2022, 10:14:51 AM
:!#
Ralph, you're not suggesting BOTH the FM and RTP are enforced - right?

NO ! PFFM > scramble > forward pass = PFFM from previous spot ^flag

       Scramble > forward pass > PFFM = RTP ,previous spot + AFD ..UNLESS.. pass is completed  = +15 from EOR % AFD.
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