Waving off a flag that you didn't throw

[SCHSref]

Just curious what you should do if you disagree with the flag thrown and know you are correct and the other person is wrong.

Had a white hat call USC on the head coach because an assistant shouted that it was a terrible call. I'm under the impression we have to have thicker skin than that and after the game, I voiced my opposition to the call. After we left, I was supported by another official.

When do you talk someone off the ledge? Can  you if they are hell-bent on that call? Any advice?

[CalhounLJ]

As a WH, if you throw it you own it. If I or another official think you missed it, I will talk to you about it and maybe strongly suggest you have a second thought about it. But if you’re still convinced, I’m going with what you called, as long as it’s judgment. If you’ve misapplied a rule, I’m waving it off.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[CalhounLJ]

We had a play this year. My L threw a dead ball for what he thought was a push to the opponent. I’m looking at it and the kid actually pushed his teammate not the opponent. When he came to me I was like, you may want to rethink that. I saw him push his teammate. He admitted he didn’t have a good look and just reacted to the commotion. He agreed to wave it off so we did and moved on.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[VALJ]

I had a game last year where I flagged a coach for screaming an obscenity at one of his own players across the field.  I got in to report to the WH, and the U told me to "pick that ----ing weak BUTT s--- up."  I was stunned and could only stare at him, until he repeated himself.  As I was a guest on the established crew, I looked at the R (a very experienced one that I like personally, and had a lot of respect for) and told him, "you know what, it's your crew, do whatever the ---- you want with my flag."  He waved it off. (Which is why I *HAD* a lot of respect for that R.  Past tense.)

Afterwards things got a bit heated in the locker room after the game, with nobody supporting me.  I got home, called the commissioner the next day, told him what happened, and asked to not be assigned with that U ever again.

[VALJ]

And to get back to the original question - unless it's an error in rules, if you he's dead set on it and won't change, enforce it.  He's the one that's going to have to own it if there's any blowback.

[Ump33]

Old school mindset ... "Don't fish in my pond."  However times are changing and there is a new way of thinking. 

Having a flag waived off is a win win for the official that is "picking up" his flag.  If the "call/flag" was not there, you have been saved from a "phantom call."  If the "call/flag" was there, the official that called you off take all the heat.

[AlUpstateNY]

Just curious what you should do if you disagree with the flag thrown and know you are correct and the other person is wrong.

What you "know" and what you "think" may not always be compatible.  Especially with USC situations, behaviors can accumulate and previously applied patience, and cautions, can ultimately expire, raising any subsequent behavior to the penalty level.

As suggested, "You throw it, you own it", which includes the possible necessity to subsequently justify it.  Providing additional information to "Help" a crewmate review/reconsider a call can be beneficial, but the final decision should be accepted (at least on the field).

[HLinNC]

Unless it is a mistake in the fact that the USC penalty should be attributed to the assistant and not the HC, in-game I don't believe that makes you anymore "correct" than the calling official.  Perhaps he had had enough of that sideline's antics.  Perhaps he heard something you didn't.   Maybe you think he should have thicker skin, lose the rabbit ears, whatever.  Its his flag, his call.  Sometimes you eat the crap sandwich laid before you.  .

This isn't a situation where you had a better view of a block in the back vs not a block in the back.

Post-game, break it down however you want.  Discuss all the factors- what was said, who said it, thick skin rabbit ears what have you. 

[VALJ]

Unless it is a mistake in the fact that the USC penalty should be attributed to the assistant and not the HC, in-game I don't believe that makes you anymore "correct" than the calling official.  Perhaps he had had enough of that sideline's antics.  Perhaps he heard something you didn't.   Maybe you think he should have thicker skin, lose the rabbit ears, whatever.  Its his flag, his call.  Sometimes you eat the crap sandwich laid before you.  .

This isn't a situation where you had a better view of a block in the back vs not a block in the back.

Post-game, break it down however you want.  Discuss all the factors- what was said, who said it, thick skin rabbit ears what have you.

It was my flag, and I had it and reported it as being on the assistant who did the yelling.  And I said in the locker room I was fine with it if he had waited until the kid got to the sideline and said that to him in conversation along the sideline, even if he had gotten a bit animated about it.  I flagged it because he screamed it out across the field.

The U just didn't think it should be penalized, despite the state's edict just two weeks before to crack down on language.  And had it been "man, are you really going to penalize that?" it would have been one thing.  But for him to say that, with several players right there to hear it - I don't need that disrespect.  I didn't go in there telling him what he should and shouldn't call in the middle.  Easier to just scratch him and be done with it. Was a shame, too - I like everyone else on that crew and hated the idea of not working with them.

[BIG UMP]

As an R, I'll always take help, if I missed who said something or who was pushed TELL ME.  I'll tell you what I saw and or heard and a decision will be made.  But I'd much rather talk now than 30 minutes later in the locker room.  If you have information I need NOW don't come up to me in the locker room later.

[ncwingman]

Old school mindset ... "Don't fish in my pond." 

It also depends how close the ponds are -- if I'm a wing guy and a pass towards my sideline is flagged as PI by the back judge, but I saw it differently, I'll talk him out of it.

If it's on the opposite side of the field and the other wing and BJ disgree, I'm not fishing in that pond. I'm also never going to talk an R or U out of a holding by an interior lineman, for example.

Had a white hat call USC on the head coach because an assistant shouted that it was a terrible call. I'm under the impression we have to have thicker skin than that and after the game, I voiced my opposition to the call. After we left, I was supported by another official.

If I had an assistant coach on my sideline yell and scream loud enough that the white hat had enough, then I'd probably be getting an earful later for not throwing that flag myself. We've gotten directives from the state that assistant coaches should be seen and not heard (within reason -- they've at least got a much shorter leash than the head coach).

Also, a "bench" USC (actions of somebody in the team box) would be charged to both the HC and the offending party for disqualification purposes.

[bossman72]

You can give information on what you saw to the calling official, but the onus is on the calling official to pick his flag up.  I probably wouldn't have someone pick up a UNS, but if it was a play on the field that I saw differently then I would definitely tell the calling official what I saw and strongly suggest to him to pick it up.

When you are doing that, (1) Be 100% sure of what you saw. (2) Be prepared to own that decision. (3) Don't beat around the bush.  Start the conversation with "Hey, I saw blah blah blah".  Not "It looked to me like blah blah blah..." or "He might have...".  These don't help the situation and just create confusion.

[bossman72]

I had a game last year where I flagged a coach for screaming an obscenity at one of his own players across the field.  I got in to report to the WH, and the U told me to "pick that ----ing weak BUTT s--- up."  I was stunned and could only stare at him, until he repeated himself.  As I was a guest on the established crew, I looked at the R (a very experienced one that I like personally, and had a lot of respect for) and told him, "you know what, it's your crew, do whatever the ---- you want with my flag."  He waved it off. (Which is why I *HAD* a lot of respect for that R.  Past tense.)

Afterwards things got a bit heated in the locker room after the game, with nobody supporting me.  I got home, called the commissioner the next day, told him what happened, and asked to not be assigned with that U ever again.

FWIW, I wouldn't have thrown that, but I wouldn't have told you to pick it up in the manner he did.

[VALJ]

FWIW, I wouldn't have thrown that, but I wouldn't have told you to pick it up in the manner he did.

If a player going to mumble that under his breath to himself, I'm conveniently not going to hear it.  If they want to say it in conversation between themselves on the sideline - even a coach to a player -  I'm OK with that.  I'm not letting anyone in a high school game scream it across the field.  I'm still JUST idealistic enough to believe that the athletic field is (theoretically, at least) an extension of the classroom.  The students and teachers presumably aren't allowed to scream obscenities out while they're sitting in geometry or history class.  Plus, the state had issued a point of emphasis on sportsmanship and language two weeks prior to the game.  FWIW, the commissioner told me on the phone that he had talked to the R, and that he (the commish) agreed that was something that should be thrown given that POE.

College level, should I ever get to it, is a different beast entirely.

[scrounge]

Also, a "bench" USC (actions of somebody in the team box) would be charged to both the HC and the offending party for disqualification purposes.

Is this a NC-specific modification? Because it's not in the base NFHS rules that I recall, unlike basketball.

[TampaSteve]

Just curious what you should do if you disagree with the flag thrown and know you are correct and the other person is wrong.

Had a white hat call USC on the head coach because an assistant shouted that it was a terrible call. I'm under the impression we have to have thicker skin than that and after the game, I voiced my opposition to the call. After we left, I was supported by another official.

When do you talk someone off the ledge? Can  you if they are hell-bent on that call? Any advice?

It's never a bad idea to try and talk a guy out of a call if you saw it differently. - but in my opinion USC is a bit of a different discussion than talking a guy off a hold or PI.
USC: the guy who threw it was probably personally moved/affected to toss the flag... vs a hold where you see action & react to it.

[Magician]

It's never a bad idea to try and talk a guy out of a call if you saw it differently. - but in my opinion USC is a bit of a different discussion than talking a guy off a hold or PI.
USC: the guy who threw it was probably personally moved/affected to toss the flag... vs a hold where you see action & react to it.

I would agree. We had an official call a UNS earlier this year for language and when I heard the dialog I thought, "really? That's all he said?" I didn't tell him to reconsider and neither did the R, but we talked about it after that he should probably have a higher threshold. It wasn't completely innocent, but it also didn't seem to rise to the level of a foul.

[ncwingman]

Is this a NC-specific modification? Because it's not in the base NFHS rules that I recall, unlike basketball.

Yes, this is the NC enforcement protocol for such fouls -- not a universal rule. It was a bit of a follow up to HLinNC's comment too.

Essentially the HC is responsible for the actions on his sideline, so if an assistant earns a USC, that's charged to the assistant for his actions AND on the HC for allowing it as well. It's only one flag/foul/15 yards, but any other sideline based USC will be the HC's second, even if it's a different assistant coach.