Not-PSK enforcements

[sj]

Are these both correct?

K 4/3 @ R40. K will punt. R has 12 players on the field and R51 is running off but does not get off before the snap. R2 fields the kick at the R15 and runs to the R23 where he is tackled

Ruling - K 1/10 @ R35 - Illegal substitution fouls do not qualify for PSK enforcement - The basic spot for this is the previous spot so K will get a new series           3-7-4    10-4-2-a

K 4/3 @ R40. K will punt. R has 10 players on the field at the snap. While the kick is in the air R51 runs out of the team box and onto the field but does not participate. R2 fields the kick at the R15 and runs to the R23 where he is tackled

Ruling - R 1/10 @ R18 - This is also a foul for illegal substitution so it cannot be PSK  - It's a nonplayer foul so the enforcement spot is the succeeding spot - So K cannot get a new series             3-7-6     10-4-5-c

[HLinNC]

See 2-16-2h.

[BetweenTheLines]

As for the first play I have had guys kill the play and toss a flag then come in and tell me he wasn't going to get off the field in time (ouch). I will tell them that because their defense was in such chaos A could have had a big play but you killed it!

[NVFOA_Ump]

As for the first play I have had guys kill the play and toss a flag then come in and tell me he wasn't going to get off the field in time (ouch). I will tell them that because their defense was in such chaos A could have had a big play but you killed it!

But that's what we've always been instructed to do.  If there are 12 on the field and in our judgement the "12th man" is not going to make it off before the snap we have a simple DB substitution foul.

[ncwingman]

But that's what we've always been instructed to do.  If there are 12 on the field and in our judgement the "12th man" is not going to make it off before the snap we have a simple DB substitution foul.

That's not what we're told to do.

If the 12th defender is *trying* to get off the field and doesn't get there before the snap, but then does leave the field and the play only has 11 participants, it's a live ball, illegal substitution foul. Flag it, let the play run and give the offense a "free play". 4-7-4 classifies this as a live ball foul.

If the defense has 12 in formation, the snap is imminent and NO player is trying to get off the field, then you kill it pre-snap for a dead-ball illegal substitution, rather than illegal participation, foul. This is a violation of 4-7-1 (replaced players must leave the field in three seconds) which is a dead ball foul.

There can be an argument if the player running off is still inside the hash marks at the snap (not just *almost* off the field) that it would graduate to IP since he would influence play by causing other players to go around them, and therefore should be killed pre-snap, but the argument is then has as to where is "middle of the field" vs "almost to the sideline" -- which will also be very situationally dependent.

[NVFOA_Ump]

That's not what we're told to do.

If the 12th defender is *trying* to get off the field and doesn't get there before the snap, but then does leave the field and the play only has 11 participants, it's a live ball, illegal substitution foul. Flag it, let the play run and give the offense a "free play". 4-7-4 classifies this as a live ball foul.

If the defense has 12 in formation, the snap is imminent and NO player is trying to get off the field, then you kill it pre-snap for a dead-ball illegal substitution, rather than illegal participation, foul. This is a violation of 4-7-1 (replaced players must leave the field in three seconds) which is a dead ball foul.

There can be an argument if the player running off is still inside the hash marks at the snap (not just *almost* off the field) that it would graduate to IP since he would influence play by causing other players to go around them, and therefore should be killed pre-snap, but the argument is then has as to where is "middle of the field" vs "almost to the sideline" -- which will also be very situationally dependent.

Except video after video ad nauseum clearly shows that in virtually all cases the 3 second limit has been exceeded, most of the time by a LOT.  99% of the time we are fully supported in calling this a DB foul.

[CalhounLJ]

Except video after video ad nauseum clearly shows that in virtually all cases the 3 second limit has been exceeded, most of the time by a LOT.  99% of the time we are fully supported in calling this a DB foul.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the 3 second count mean they start to leave within 3 seconds? Not that the sub has to be completed within 3 seconds? If that's the case, I can see it happening.

[KWH]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the 3 second count mean they start to leave within 3 seconds? Not that the sub has to be completed within 3 seconds? If that's the case, I can see it happening.

OK Calhoun - You are wrong!

A replaced player shall begin to leave the field within 3 seconds after his substitute communicates with him that he has been replaced.

3.7.3 SITUATION B

How can you expect the player being replaced to know he needs to leave until he is advised he has been replaced?

[CalhounLJ]

OK Calhoun - You are wrong!

A replaced player shall begin to leave the field within 3 seconds after his substitute communicates with him that he has been replaced.

3.7.3 SITUATION B

How can you expect the player being replaced to know he needs to leave until he is advised he has been replaced?

Slow down and read what i posted again. That's what I said...
"Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the 3 second count mean they start to leave within 3 seconds? Not that the sub has to be completed?"
Once a player has been replaced, he has 3 seconds to BEGIN to leave the field, not 3 seconds to COMPLETELY leave the field. That's the point of the situation. The question is not what it takes for a player to be considered replaced, but how long he has to begin to leave once he has been replaced.
Context is important. Kinda like succeeding spot...

[bama_stripes]

My case book has:

3.7 COMMENT (2): “If a replaced player does not leave the field within three seconds, it is a dead-ball, illegal substitution foul. (3-7-1)” (emphasis added)

[CalhounLJ]

My case book has:

3.7 COMMENT (2): “If a replaced player does not leave the field within three seconds, it is a dead-ball, illegal substitution foul. (3-7-1)” (emphasis added)

Interesting.  The rule states: “3-7 ART. 1 . . . Between downs any number of eligible substitutes may replace players. Upon meeting the criteria of 2-32-12, replaced players shall begin to leave the field within three seconds.”

We've always been taught that if there are 12 in the formation (or the huddle) with nobody trying to leave within 3 seconds after they've been replaced, we "blow it and throw it" dead ball illegal substitution. If a replaced player begins to leave the field within 3 seconds of being replaced, but doesn't make it to the sideline, it's a foul at the snap for illegal substitution. Throw it, let the play continue, and then deal with it once the play is over.

IMO, it could be difficult to make a substitution on the far side of the field using the timing of the case book. There are many players who could not make that dash in 3 seconds.

[NVFOA_Ump]

Let's think about this a bit.  On the OP here we're on a 4th down scrimmage kick play.  For either team X number of players come on but X-Y players go off.  We count and note 12 (or more) players on the field.  We note that no one is heading off after count (easily beyond 3 seconds) and/or it's clear that the snap is eminent with too many players on the field.  That is a DB blow & throw.   Even if finally someone is heading off who's going to confirm in the confusion that the PLAYER heading off is actual a REPLACED PLAYER who was not one of the INCOMING SUBSTITUTES who by rule must remain in for a minimum of 1 play.  We have always been told to call this a DB blow & throw.

[CalhounLJ]

Let's think about this a bit.  On the OP here we're on a 4th down scrimmage kick play.  For either team X number of players come on but X-Y players go off.  We count and note 12 (or more) players on the field.  We note that no one is heading off after count (easily beyond 3 seconds) and/or it's clear that the snap is eminent with too many players on the field.  That is a DB blow & throw.   Even if finally someone is heading off who's going to confirm in the confusion that the PLAYER heading off is actual a REPLACED PLAYER who was not one of the INCOMING SUBSTITUTES who by rule must remain in for a minimum of 1 play.  We have always been told to call this a DB blow & throw.

I agree with this completely. If we have substitutions, have 12 on the field in the formation with nobody trying to leave, it's dead ball IS at that moment.

[Ralph Damren]

Remmember, guys, two things:

(1) If a team can get out apending foul by calling a TO, they can. This would include Ill. Sub (a player running off) and illegal shift.

(2) The '3 second rule' replaced the, immeadte rule' as Bubba wasn't expected to be a mind-reader and he was about to be substituted for. The 3" gives it time to sink in.

[KWH]

This conversation surfaces every three years or so.  As such, I encourage folks to consider this situation...

1) Big 'ole Bubba comes in to replace Tugboat but doesn't say a damned thing rather he just joins in the Huddle

2) Tugboat does not realized he has been replaced until both he and Bubba are attempting to both fit their fat BUTTS into the left guard position.

3) They look at each other and say something like "OH SH*T"

4) At this point the covering official should take a big breath, pause, and then maybe start your 3 second clock.


This is why RULE 2-32-12 is written like it is:

2-32-12...A replaced player is one who has been notified by a substitute that he is to leave the field.  Not a lot of gray area there?

Jeez, think about it guys? Sometimes it takes Big 'ole Bubba 10 seconds just to get to the Huddle...

[NVFOA_Ump]

This is why RULE 2-32-12 is written like it is:

2-32-12...A replaced player is one who has been notified by a substitute that he is to leave the field.  Not a lot of gray area there?

But you skipped the equally important 2nd sentence of that same rule: A player is also replaced when the entering substitute becomes a player.  Not a lot of gray area there either?

[CalhounLJ]

But you skipped the equally important 2nd sentence of that same rule: A player is also replaced when the entering substitute becomes a player.  Not a lot of gray area there either?

Exactly. And don't forget 2-32-15, which tells us when a substitute becomes a player. "A substitute becomes a player when he enters the field and communicates with a teammate or a game official, enters the huddle, IS POSITIONED IN A FORMATION, or participates in the play.

I'll say it until I'm blue in the face, DEFINITIONS ARE IMPORTANT...

[CalhounLJ]

This conversation surfaces every three years or so.  As such, I encourage folks to consider this situation...

1) Big 'ole Bubba comes in to replace Tugboat but doesn't say a damned thing rather he just joins in the Huddle

2) Tugboat does not realized he has been replaced until both he and Bubba are attempting to both fit their fat BUTTS into the left guard position.

3) They look at each other and say something like "OH SH*T"

4) At this point the covering official should take a big breath, pause, and then maybe start your 3 second clock.


This is why RULE 2-32-12 is written like it is:

2-32-12...A replaced player is one who has been notified by a substitute that he is to leave the field.  Not a lot of gray area there?

Jeez, think about it guys? Sometimes it takes Big 'ole Bubba 10 seconds just to get to the Huddle...

NOPE. if we have 12 in the formation and nobody is trying to leave, no need to take a breath, unless it's to blow the whistle and throw the flag. See 2-32-15.