Author Topic: hEAR YE, HERE YE..IT'S GROUNDHOG DAY, HERE THEY ARE......  (Read 18028 times)

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Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: hEAR YE, HERE YE..IT'S GROUNDHOG DAY, HERE THEY ARE......
« Reply #125 on: March 05, 2023, 08:28:12 AM »
While the ump is safer in the O-backfield- the players are runnung AWAY from you , in lieu of running AT you- I worry about the strong presence  P_S the ump  P_S has at the LOS being lost and that coverage with a 5-man crew :o.

Absolutely agree, the constant "presence" of the U, and his ability to communicate(privately) with players on BOTH sides of the LOS prior to, during and immediately after the play are his FAR most beneficial contributions to the conduct of the game (at the NFHS/Youth levels.

Offline ted skoundrianos

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Re: hEAR YE, HERE YE..IT'S GROUNDHOG DAY, HERE THEY ARE......
« Reply #126 on: March 05, 2023, 09:56:25 AM »
Ralph, I like your idea about a pat block remain alive unless R or the kick go OOB or EZ. Is there any chance that it may be on the docket for next year. My crew is going to have the umpire in the offensive backfield 5-7 yards deep. If my umpire get injured or even if his out for the year. I don't have a alternate to step in. We be working 4-person mechanics. I worked 4-person mechanics in 1985 when I started working high school football. In 1988 ILL. went to 5-person mechanics. We also had alternates on our crew so if one went down we put them in. I respect both your opinion but safety is my main concern if my umpire is lost  for any part of the season we back doing 4-person mechanics. So are crew is going to work with the umpire in the offensive backfield 5-7 deep.

Offline ncwingman

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Re: hEAR YE, HERE YE..IT'S GROUNDHOG DAY, HERE THEY ARE......
« Reply #127 on: March 05, 2023, 10:30:59 AM »
I'm curious where you are that you have such fixed crews that you'd be stuck with a four man crew with no possibility for a substitute or replacement.

Granted, my region has absolutely no fixed crew assignments, and I'd probably like having a set crew to work with sometimes, but it's also nice to work with a variety of people and it helps new guys break in and get experience easier. The vast differences state to state are fascinating, really.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: hEAR YE, HERE YE..IT'S GROUNDHOG DAY, HERE THEY ARE......
« Reply #128 on: March 05, 2023, 11:01:33 AM »
IMHO, the problem with fixed crews is the concern of whose crew is 'one-eyed Smitty, peg-leg Jones and miserable Mike going to be on  ??? ? Every chapter has a few that ,while working a game or two, but having him with you every week would not be an enjoyable event  :(. Our games are assigned three weeks in advance and replacements can be found in advent of injuries.

Offline bossman72

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Re: hEAR YE, HERE YE..IT'S GROUNDHOG DAY, HERE THEY ARE......
« Reply #129 on: March 05, 2023, 11:57:07 AM »
While I'm a strong opponent of bringing the 'live ball- PAT' rule, I would favor a blocked PAT kick remaining alive until possession gained by R or kick going OOB or EZ. On a bad snap or muffed snap by the holder we allow the ball to remain alive . Several years ago, in a game between arch rivals, K trailed by 2 with only seconds to go......

(I) K attempted a 20 yard FG to win;
(2) Kick was blocked;
(3) Ref tweeted his tweeter  :!#;
(4) Time @0:00, R recovered kick.  :o ??? ::)
(5)  ^talk ^talk :o, K given another FGA            ^TD ^TD
(6) Lewiston HS beat arch-rival by a point.

POSTGAME : Ref sez', "GEEZ, I was so used to tweeting on a blocked PAT, I just did what I was used to. pi1eOn "

NEXT DAY : My phone rang  :puke:, and rang  :puke:, and rang.........

I always wondered what the rationale behind the rule was.  Was it basically "The defense can't return this blocked kick, so the offense shouldn't be able to either."?

Offline bossman72

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Re: hEAR YE, HERE YE..IT'S GROUNDHOG DAY, HERE THEY ARE......
« Reply #130 on: March 05, 2023, 12:01:03 PM »
IMHO, the problem with fixed crews is the concern of whose crew is 'one-eyed Smitty, peg-leg Jones and miserable Mike going to be on  ??? ? Every chapter has a few that ,while working a game or two, but having him with you every week would not be an enjoyable event  :(. Our games are assigned three weeks in advance and replacements can be found in advent of injuries.

Our area works in fixed crews, but the Referee makes his own crew, not the assigner.  We have many different crews in different chapters that work for a few "commissioners" (assigners) that assigns a handful of conferences.  Crews can be of officials in different chapters, but typically crews are made by officials in the same chapter.

So nobody really has to take a person they don't want to unless they're out of options.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: hEAR YE, HERE YE..IT'S GROUNDHOG DAY, HERE THEY ARE......
« Reply #131 on: March 05, 2023, 12:29:46 PM »
I always wondered what the rationale behind the rule was.  Was it basically "The defense can't return this blocked kick, so the offense shouldn't be able to either."?
Searched the NFHS Football Hanbook (chronology) and History of NFHS Football Rules (back to 1946) and couldn't find any record of this being added. I did discover, with little interest, that prior to 1922 the PAT was from the 5 and put into play at the point on the field where the player entered the end zone. In 1927, the goal posts were moved back to the end line and in 1929, the try was from the two.

Not allowing the defense to score on a PAT ,I believe, comes from the theory that the PAT was a bonus for the team that scored a TD. Sorta' like a technical foul in basketball or penalty shot in ice-hockey. I considered the logic could be 'you were trying for one, but because the kick got blocked, you scored two'; until I recalled that prior to 1969 all PATs were only one.

Offline ted skoundrianos

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Re: hEAR YE, HERE YE..IT'S GROUNDHOG DAY, HERE THEY ARE......
« Reply #132 on: March 06, 2023, 01:12:17 AM »
Ncwingman, In ILL. we have a shortage of high school football officials on all levels. I work with a assigner that assigns on 2 years contracts. I have my schedule for 2023 & 2024. It's not like when I Started in 1985 when high school varisty crews carried alternates on their crews. So if someone got hurt & couldn't work because of injury they could fill in.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: hEAR YE, HERE YE..IT'S GROUNDHOG DAY, HERE THEY ARE......
« Reply #133 on: March 06, 2023, 09:43:47 AM »
A proposed rule that was tabled in sub- committee, because of lack of stats, was one you guys favored 12-3 in our straw poll. Starting the game clock on RFP after OOB plays prior to last 2 minutes of each half.. They needed to see how often it occurred and how much time elapsed between RFP & snap. I proposed to run as an experimental rule to our state association but was suggested to clear it with the coaches first.

I'm speaking at our state coaches clinic this Friday, and am searching for any ideas from you guys. A selling point is that this has Been around NCAA & NFL for many years without any glitch that I'm aware of. Our proposed mechanic is asking the LJ to record occurances and attempt to record time saved. Any suggestions would be welcomed.....

 :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: (5-man crew)

Offline ted skoundrianos

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Re: hEAR YE, HERE YE..IT'S GROUNDHOG DAY, HERE THEY ARE......
« Reply #134 on: March 06, 2023, 10:56:56 AM »
Ralph, I don't think in the high school game we need that rule. I understand in college & NFL because The game were running about 3-3:30. In high school a varisty game is about 2:00 -2:15. If the high school game were running like the college or NFL I would like to see that rule change. Remember high school is 12 minute quarters. College & NFL are 15 minute quarters. They also have all there games on TV. My state in ILL. most games are not on TV. Only when the IHSA state finals are playing on thankgiving weekend. What is your state high school association if you don't mine asking. As a certified official I can send a propose rule change to My association IHSA & they can send it to be voted on. As a certified official I get the football questionnaire from my association for propose football changes.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: hEAR YE, HERE YE..IT'S GROUNDHOG DAY, HERE THEY ARE......
« Reply #135 on: March 06, 2023, 12:11:37 PM »
My state association is the Maine Principals' Association, the governing body for all high school sports. They need to approve any experimental rules, and this usually requires that the rule is favored by coaches, officials and their Football Committee. If it isn't approved, I can still obtain data for the NFHS sub-committee by tracking the number of occurrances per game and the time elapsed between the ball spotted and the snap. Some say the games are taking too long. This would shorten them, but by how much ??

Offline ncwingman

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Re: hEAR YE, HERE YE..IT'S GROUNDHOG DAY, HERE THEY ARE......
« Reply #136 on: March 06, 2023, 03:40:15 PM »
Ncwingman, In ILL. we have a shortage of high school football officials on all levels. I work with a assigner that assigns on 2 years contracts. I have my schedule for 2023 & 2024. It's not like when I Started in 1985 when high school varisty crews carried alternates on their crews. So if someone got hurt & couldn't work because of injury they could fill in.

The bigger hurdle in NC is that teams don't have their schedules set that far in advance, and non-conference games are sometimes in flux right up to season start. We've got an officials shortage as well, we try to piecemeal crews together as much as possible to cover everything that may pop up and often have to pick up games or ask for help from neighboring associations.

A proposed rule that was tabled in sub- committee, because of lack of stats, was one you guys favored 12-3 in our straw poll. Starting the game clock on RFP after OOB plays prior to last 2 minutes of each half.. They needed to see how often it occurred and how much time elapsed between RFP & snap. I proposed to run as an experimental rule to our state association but was suggested to clear it with the coaches first.

I'm speaking at our state coaches clinic this Friday, and am searching for any ideas from you guys. A selling point is that this has Been around NCAA & NFL for many years without any glitch that I'm aware of. Our proposed mechanic is asking the LJ to record occurances and attempt to record time saved. Any suggestions would be welcomed.....

 :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: (5-man crew)

Here's a thought, and I might try to do it myself if you want a random data point from warmer climates. Instead of changing the way the clock is managed, you could collect data without letting anybody know you're doing so. This will require a few things that may not exist, or exist consistently.

a) I know you've stated that there are no on-field play clocks in Maine. This means this will be the BJ's responsibility (assuming he's keeping the play clock) -- and he'll have to keep an accurate play clock. I know that there are occasions in blowout JV games that I've not been super accurate on my definition of 40 if I'm the only person who knows...

b) Whoever is doing it will likely have to keep a written record, pausing during timeouts or other administrative stoppages to keep up -- or try to remember an increasing list of random numbers in his head. Radios and a penalty charter would simplify this, but that's probably not consistently available.

c) Anyway, to the mechanic -- play goes OOB, clock stopped. BJ starts the 40. Once the ball is placed and U backs off, BJ notes the time remaining on the play clock (say 30 seconds). At the snap, BJ notes time remaining (say 12 seconds). Subtract the two and there that was the potential time off the game clock (30-12 = 18 seconds). After several plays, BJ only has to remember the seconds elapsed (18, 12, 7, etc.). At whatever stoppages, BJ writes down current list of numbers and then can restart the list. If radio/charter exist, BJ can just call out the time after each play and have somebody else keep the running tally. After the game, add the numbers together for total time and count how many numbers for total occurrences. Data collected with no change in how the game is run.

d) Alternative is BJ keeps a count up timer on a second watch, and then doesn't have to check the time at the snap, but just hit a button and check it after the play. Probably a better idea, since the BJ should probably be keeping an eye on his keys at the snap rather than his watch, but it requires additional gear.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: hEAR YE, HERE YE..IT'S GROUNDHOG DAY, HERE THEY ARE......
« Reply #137 on: March 06, 2023, 04:16:00 PM »
Thanks, ncwingman, for your response. I was thinking LJ as he doesn't have a duty after the ball is brought in, but your suggestion of using the BJ certainly makes sense. If we fail to get an acceptable response from the coaches, our chapter has seven retired officials that have volenteered to attend game and observe new officials. They stated that they could count occerrences and record time elapsed between spotting the ball & the snap. IMHO, to obtain data, as it's a play that happens several times a game we wouldn't need to count every game, a sample of several games should be acceptable. Counting the number of OOB plays- excepting last 2 minutes of each half -and X times length of down time spot to snap = gives us time game was shortened. Example : OOB 10 times X average spot > snap 20" = 3' 20" game shortened.

Thanks again, ncwingman, for your offer. My question to all of you, if time saved was under 5 minutes, would it be worth it  ???

 :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR:
« Last Edit: March 07, 2023, 05:31:46 AM by Ralph Damren »

Offline ted skoundrianos

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Re: hEAR YE, HERE YE..IT'S GROUNDHOG DAY, HERE THEY ARE......
« Reply #138 on: March 06, 2023, 04:47:23 PM »
Ralph, if time saved was under 5 minutes I all for that rule change.

Offline ncwingman

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Re: hEAR YE, HERE YE..IT'S GROUNDHOG DAY, HERE THEY ARE......
« Reply #139 on: March 06, 2023, 06:16:38 PM »
Back of the envelope math here -- based on clock stopping/starting for a first down, you're probably maxing out at 25 seconds of game clock per out of bounds play (ball spotted at 30 on the play clock and snapped at 5). 5 minutes of total time means you'd need 12 out of bounds plays in the game to hit that. I'm guessing that you're going to get three kinds of games:

1) Up the middle running games. Plays never go out of bounds, so you're not "saving" time by doing so. Fast games where the clock never stops, so the rule would be moot.

2) Sweep running games. Lots of plays go out of bounds or threaten the sideline. You'll probably surpass 12 plays and "save" over 5 minutes. Slow games where the clock stops often and could benefit from the rule change.

3) Passing games. Clock is stopped due to incomplete passes more than anything. Very few plays end with an OOB run. Slow games where the clock stops for different reasons, so the rule change has no impact.

If, on average, the rule change has an impact of less than 5 minutes, it's probably not worth trying to confuse the volunteer clock operators. If it's 5-10 minutes, I might implement it. If it's more than 10 minutes, I almost think it's too much because you've shortened the game by 10 plays or more. I don't think we need to be trying to make the games as short as possible, so I wouldn't want a huge impact, but I also recognize I'm probably in the minority here on that.

Offline bossman72

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Re: hEAR YE, HERE YE..IT'S GROUNDHOG DAY, HERE THEY ARE......
« Reply #140 on: March 06, 2023, 09:52:52 PM »
Back of the envelope math here -- based on clock stopping/starting for a first down, you're probably maxing out at 25 seconds of game clock per out of bounds play (ball spotted at 30 on the play clock and snapped at 5). 5 minutes of total time means you'd need 12 out of bounds plays in the game to hit that. I'm guessing that you're going to get three kinds of games:

1) Up the middle running games. Plays never go out of bounds, so you're not "saving" time by doing so. Fast games where the clock never stops, so the rule would be moot.

2) Sweep running games. Lots of plays go out of bounds or threaten the sideline. You'll probably surpass 12 plays and "save" over 5 minutes. Slow games where the clock stops often and could benefit from the rule change.

3) Passing games. Clock is stopped due to incomplete passes more than anything. Very few plays end with an OOB run. Slow games where the clock stops for different reasons, so the rule change has no impact.

If, on average, the rule change has an impact of less than 5 minutes, it's probably not worth trying to confuse the volunteer clock operators. If it's 5-10 minutes, I might implement it. If it's more than 10 minutes, I almost think it's too much because you've shortened the game by 10 plays or more. I don't think we need to be trying to make the games as short as possible, so I wouldn't want a huge impact, but I also recognize I'm probably in the minority here on that.

At the same time, how many times do we see when a runner is driven out of bounds "parallel" (huge air quotes here) and the LOS official winds the clock to keep the game moving?  With the rule change that it winds back up when OOB, you can have the LOS officials wind only when he's CLEARLY driven backward OOB and not have to fudge that judgement anymore for the sake of moving the game along.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: hEAR YE, HERE YE..IT'S GROUNDHOG DAY, HERE THEY ARE......
« Reply #141 on: March 07, 2023, 06:10:26 AM »
Another debatable issue that I'll be polling the coaches on has to do with strengthing a rule. The NFHS allows us, with their approval, to do such. A classic example is the disqualification rule, no where is future game suspension mentioned; however many states have sanctioned suspensions in place.

One of the state championship  games last Fall was mired by an obviously intentional DPI on a 4th dowm goal-to-goal situation. They had the opportunity to repeat 4th down ,but failed.  Many at the game felt a new series should be added. MAFO (Maine Association of Football Officials) and MPA (Maine Principals' Association) both agree that SOMETHING should be done. Our choices are......

(1) Automatic first down on all DPI;
(2) Automatic first down on DPI if LOS was within B's 30;
(3) Automatic first down on DPI if in goal-to-goal.

WHAT SAY YOU  ??? ??? ???

 :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR:

Offline bama_stripes

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Re: hEAR YE, HERE YE..IT'S GROUNDHOG DAY, HERE THEY ARE......
« Reply #142 on: March 07, 2023, 07:02:58 AM »
My vote is for AFD on all DPI, even if it means reinstating LOD for OPI to get it passed.  OPI is a rare occurrence, and shouldn’t have any effect in most games.

Easy to explain, easy to officiate.

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: hEAR YE, HERE YE..IT'S GROUNDHOG DAY, HERE THEY ARE......
« Reply #143 on: March 07, 2023, 07:33:24 AM »
Another debatable issue that I'll be polling the coaches on has to do with strengthing a rule. The NFHS allows us, with their approval, to do such. A classic example is the disqualification rule, no where is future game suspension mentioned; however many states have sanctioned suspensions in place.

One of the state championship  games last Fall was mired by an obviously intentional DPI on a 4th dowm goal-to-goal situation. They had the opportunity to repeat 4th down ,but failed.  Many at the game felt a new series should be added. MAFO (Maine Association of Football Officials) and MPA (Maine Principals' Association) both agree that SOMETHING should be done. Our choices are......
(1) Automatic first down on all DPI;
(2) Automatic first down on DPI if LOS was within B's 30;
(3) Automatic first down on DPI if in goal-to-goal.

Standardizing DPI to include an automatic 1st down, would consistently increase the consequence, without requiring any additional "judgment factor" for concluding whether the action was "intentional" or not.  The current additional 15 yard penalty for INTENTIONAL PI, which applies to EITHER team, (and is rarely applied) should remain as a deterrent, utilizing signal 27 (USC), which could include Disqualification, based on the severity/danger of the act.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: hEAR YE, HERE YE..IT'S GROUNDHOG DAY, HERE THEY ARE......
« Reply #144 on: March 07, 2023, 08:25:20 AM »
Standardizing DPI to include an automatic 1st down, would consistently increase the consequence, without requiring any additional "judgment factor" for concluding whether the action was "intentional" or not.  The current additional 15 yard penalty for INTENTIONAL PI, which applies to EITHER team, (and is rarely applied) should remain as a deterrent, utilizing signal 27 (USC), which could include Disqualification, based on the severity/danger of the act.
We'll see Halley's Comet in another 40+ years. We won't see intentional pass interference called during that time frame as it was removed as a rule this year (see #4 on first post). We will, however, see the Red Sox play the Yanks very soon.

Offline ncwingman

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Re: hEAR YE, HERE YE..IT'S GROUNDHOG DAY, HERE THEY ARE......
« Reply #145 on: March 07, 2023, 02:07:28 PM »
Another debatable issue that I'll be polling the coaches on has to do with strengthing a rule. The NFHS allows us, with their approval, to do such. A classic example is the disqualification rule, no where is future game suspension mentioned; however many states have sanctioned suspensions in place.

One of the state championship  games last Fall was mired by an obviously intentional DPI on a 4th dowm goal-to-goal situation. They had the opportunity to repeat 4th down ,but failed.  Many at the game felt a new series should be added. MAFO (Maine Association of Football Officials) and MPA (Maine Principals' Association) both agree that SOMETHING should be done. Our choices are......

(1) Automatic first down on all DPI;
(2) Automatic first down on DPI if LOS was within B's 30;
(3) Automatic first down on DPI if in goal-to-goal.

WHAT SAY YOU  ??? ??? ???

 :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR:

Here's a pot stirrer for you -- A gains a new series, 1st-goal at the B5. On 1st down, A7 is sacked for a loss of 15 yards. On 2nd down from the B20, A65 is called for holding. Replaying 2nd down from the B30, B56 is called for DPI at the B10.

If you chose option 2 above, how is this fundamentally different than if A7 had been sacked for a loss of 13 yards, and the replayed 2nd down was only at the B28? Or what happens if you were a football length inside or outside of the 30 -- or whatever arbitrary line you pick?

If you chose option 3 above, how is this fundamentally different than if A hadn't previously gotten to the 5, but it was just 2nd and 10? A gets "bailed out" with an AFD because they had conceded significant yardage on the previous plays.

I don't see how there's a way you could put in AFD situationally and not cause major issues. It has to be just "yes" or "no".


Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: hEAR YE, HERE YE..IT'S GROUNDHOG DAY, HERE THEY ARE......
« Reply #146 on: March 07, 2023, 04:20:22 PM »
Here's a pot stirrer for you -- A gains a new series, 1st-goal at the B5. On 1st down, A7 is sacked for a loss of 15 yards. On 2nd down from the B20, A65 is called for holding. Replaying 2nd down from the B30, B56 is called for DPI at the B10.

If you chose option 2 above, how is this fundamentally different than if A7 had been sacked for a loss of 13 yards, and the replayed 2nd down was only at the B28? Or what happens if you were a football length inside or outside of the 30 -- or whatever arbitrary line you pick?

If you chose option 3 above, how is this fundamentally different than if A hadn't previously gotten to the 5, but it was just 2nd and 10? A gets "bailed out" with an AFD because they had conceded significant yardage on the previous plays.

I don't see how there's a way you could put in AFD situationally and not cause major issues. It has to be just "yes" or "no".

I agree, ncwingman, all the way is my choice and that of most officials that I have explained it to. I plan to 'suggest' that to the coaches at our clinic.

Offline ted skoundrianos

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Re: hEAR YE, HERE YE..IT'S GROUNDHOG DAY, HERE THEY ARE......
« Reply #147 on: March 07, 2023, 04:49:45 PM »
Ralph, I agree with Bama_stripes All DPI automatic 1st down. But leave OPI no LOD. Would the penalty be 15 from previous spot or spot of foul or the college rule spot foul if less the 15 yards.

Offline VALJ

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Re: hEAR YE, HERE YE..IT'S GROUNDHOG DAY, HERE THEY ARE......
« Reply #148 on: March 07, 2023, 08:46:46 PM »
I’d be fine with bringing back the auto first down for DPI, but only if we don’t have to bring back the LOD for OPI.  For all the talk of holding behind the LOS being a drive killing penalty, a 15 yard foul with a loss of down as the real drive killer. 

As much as I hate the seeming trend of college rules working their way down to high school just because, DPI enforcement is actually one of the things I like about college football. You start at the previous spot and walk until you reach the spot of the foul, or 15 yards from the previous spot, or the B2 yard line.  I’ve always hated having a DPI that occurs 5 yards downfield but we walk off 15 for it.

Even though it seems that about one out of every two or three rule changes results in an “exception” to a previous rule or enforcement, and Fed resisted putting exceptions for in for ages, it seems like we’re more willing to have those exceptions nowadays. If the “no foul results in a penalty of more than half the distance to the goal line” thing is a sacred cow, keep the half the distance enforcement as an option too. 
« Last Edit: March 07, 2023, 08:49:36 PM by VALJ »

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: hEAR YE, HERE YE..IT'S GROUNDHOG DAY, HERE THEY ARE......
« Reply #149 on: March 08, 2023, 05:16:38 AM »
I don't see ever treating DPI as a spot foul. IMHO, that would assume that w/o the foul the pass would be complete. I wouldn't be asking to again add LOD to OPI, just AFD to DPI to prevent ugly events down and around the end zone.