IW incorrectly enforced, but should it be right?

[ncwingman]

4th down, K punts the ball. With a short punt, a K player accidentally touches the ball rolling on the ground. An eager new line judge blows his whistle after K touches the ball, not realizing the play is not over.

I've had this play happen several times, and each time we've dealt with it the same way which is not actually correct -- we give R the ball at the spot of first touching. No coach has ever complained about doing that, but since it was a loose ball play while the ball was loose, the only actual option is to replay the down.

Would it be worthwhile to amend 4-2-3a to account for this situation -- if an inadvertent whistle occurs during a kick after first touching by K, allowing R the option of taking the ball at the spot of first touching.

[bama_stripes]

The IW has deprived R of the chance for a return, which could possibly have taken the ball past the FT spot.  Also, R might have subsequently fouled, which would negate FT.

The current rule is simple and fair.

[ncwingman]

My proposed rule change would not require that R take the ball at the spot of first touching, rather it is only an option. They can choose to replay the down. However, it would also be negated should R commit a foul after the first touching -- as 4-2-3a requires that fouls be declined.

To wit, if I were to formally write the rule change:

4-2-3a would read "If during a down or during a down in which the penalty for a foul is declined, an inadvertent whistle is sounded while a legal forward pass or snap is in flight, or during a legal kick, the down shall be replayed or R can elect to take the ball at a spot of first touching, if available."

[CalhounLJ]

Why not? We have rules we can't go by now...

[NVFOA_Ump]

Why not? We have rules we can't go by now...

[SCline]

I would be in support of that rule

[Ralph Damren]

Shortly after the advent of PSK, this was discussed. While a grounded kick would enable one to estimate it location when the eager tweated, a kick that was still airborne would be quite a challange.  Hense = a 'do-over'.

[NVFOA_Ump]

Would it be worthwhile to amend 4-2-3a to account for this situation -- if an inadvertent whistle occurs during a kick after first touching by K, allowing R the option of taking the ball at the spot of first touching.

Does this happen enough to even worry about?  And given how NFHS writes rule changes I'm thinking that this isn't really broken so let's not try and fix it?

[ncwingman]

Shortly after the advent of PSK, this was discussed. While a grounded kick would enable one to estimate it location when the eager tweated, a kick that was still airborne would be quite a challange.  Hense = a 'do-over'.

Grounded wouldn't be sufficient here. I'm talking about an established spot of first touching by K that one can go back to.

Does this happen enough to even worry about?  And given how NFHS writes rule changes I'm thinking that this isn't really broken so let's not try and fix it?

While "often" may be a stretch, easily the vast majority of IW on punt plays that I've seen come from this situation.

The rest of them are on muffed fair catches with the BJ a little too eager to "give protection" and kill the play -- that case I would *not* just give R the ball at the spot of the muff. Replaying the down is the only legitimate option there.

[bossman72]

This is the NCAA rule.  A foul or violation can trump the IW.  I would support that.

[KWH]

This is the NCAA rule.  A foul or violation can trump the IW.  I would support that.

See NFHS 4-2-3d

[bossman72]

See NFHS 4-2-3d

Right.  The NCAA rule includes violations.  NFHS rule does not.  That's the point I was trying to make.

[KWH]

I do profess NOT to be an NCAA guy so what am i missing?
In NFHS, When a foul occurs before the IW, if accepted, the foul takes precedence and thus the IW goes away.

NFHS RULE
* 4-2-3d

NFHS CASEBOOK
* 4.2.3 SITUATION B
* 4.2.3 SITUATION E
* 4.2.3 SITUATION F
* 4.2.3 SITUATION G

Damn it Bossman, am I thinkg too hard or should I just go pour myself a cocktail?

[CalhounLJ]

I do profess NOT to be an NCAA guy so what am i missing?
In NFHS, When a foul occurs before the IW, if accepted, the foul takes precedence and thus the IW goes away.

NFHS RULE
* 4-2-3d

NFHS CASEBOOK
* 4.2.3 SITUATION B
* 4.2.3 SITUATION E
* 4.2.3 SITUATION F
* 4.2.3 SITUATION G

Damn it Bossman, am I thinkg too hard or should I just go pour myself a cocktail?

What you are missing is that in NCAA, both violations and fouls can trump IW's. In NFHS, only fouls can trump IW's. First touching, being a violation and not a foul, doesn't trump the IW. That's the point of the entire thread. NC is suggesting to adopt the NCAA rule. I agree.

[KWH]

All-Righty then - I will go pour that drink now...

[CalhounLJ]

All-Righty then - I will go pour that drink now...