Proper Chain setting??

[juxone]

After the snap "A" 40 the back breaks through and makes a first down and the end of the run is the "A" 20. After the end of the run and the play, "A"  draws a flag for USC. Are the chains moved and set with the LTG at the 10, and the penalty is marked off from the end of the run to the 35 with the LOS marker set at the 35, making it 1st and 25,

Or is the correct process to mark the penalty from the end of the run (20) to the 35 and then move the chains to set the LTG at the 25, making 1 and 10 from the 25?

[CalhounLJ]

Mark the penalty off before you set the chains. After enforcement, it will be 1st and 10 from the 35. Always start a series with 1st and 10. The only way you would have 1st and 25 would be a dead ball after the ready for play, or a live ball 15yard penalty where you replay the down.

[HLinNC]

You have 1st and 25 after the RFP has been blown.

[AlUpstateNY]

Mark the penalty off before you set the chains. After enforcement, it will be 1st and 10 from the 35. Always start a series with 1st and 10. The only way you would have 1st and 25 would be a dead ball after the ready for play, or a live ball 15yard penalty where you replay the down.

NFHS 9-5-a "The basic spot is the succeeding spot for
a:An Unsportsmanlike foul.

[CalhounLJ]

You have 1st and 25 after the RFP has been blown.

i think that's what i said?  "The only way you would have 1st and 25 would be a dead ball foul after the ready for play, or a live ball 15yd penalty where you replay the down." ?

[CalhounLJ]

NFHS 9-5-a "The basic spot is the succeeding spot for
a:An Unsportsmanlike foul.

Ok. Your point ?

[NVFOA_Ump]

NFHS 9-5-a "The basic spot is the succeeding spot for
a:An Unsportsmanlike foul.

And how does that answer the question? 

[NVFOA_Ump]

You have 1st and 25 after the RFP has been blown.

You will only have a 1st and 25 if the flag for USC was thrown after the 1st down had been awarded, the chains had been set for a 1st & 10, and the ball is made ready for play.

[Ralph Damren]

The tricky one is 1/10 with a hurry-up offense. A runs up and snaps the ball BEFORE RFP. It's easy to think 1/15, but where the RFP had not been signaled, the chains would then be resets to 1/10 after the mark off.

[bama_stripes]

The tricky one is 1/10 with a hurry-up offense. A runs up and snaps the ball BEFORE RFP. It's easy to think 1/15, but where the RFP had not been signaled, the chains would then be resets to 1/10 after the mark off.

But this should never happen with proper mechanics.

In any situation where a RFP will be actually blown, the U should stay at the ball and advise the snapper to ”wait for the whistle.”

[HLinNC]

You will only have a 1st and 25 if the flag for USC was thrown after the 1st down had been awarded, the chains had been set for a 1st & 10, and the ball is made ready for play.

Gee, thanks.

[NVFOA_Ump]

But this should never happen with proper mechanics.

In any situation where a RFP will be actually blown, the U should stay at the ball and advise the snapper to ”wait for the whistle.”

IMHO when we are in hurry up mode and have a flag down I don't put the ball down until the penalty is completed.  A can't snap it if it's in my hand.

[AlUpstateNY]

And how does that answer the question? 

The question suggests A had established a 1st down, after which A committed an UNS foul, which is  is a succeeding spot (15 yd.) foul. NFHS 2-42-10 defines "Succeeding spot" as "where the ball  would next be snapped, or free kicked, if a foul had not occurred. 15 yards.  As the 1st down appears to have been established before, and independent of, the foul, wouldn't the penalty be enforced from the "succeeding spot"?

[NVFOA_Ump]

The question suggests A had established a 1st down, after which A committed an UNS foul, which is  is a succeeding spot (15 yd.) foul. NFHS 2-42-10 defines "Succeeding spot" as "where the ball  would next be snapped, or free kicked, if a foul had not occurred. 15 yards.  As the 1st down appears to have been established before, and independent of, the foul, wouldn't the penalty be enforced from the "succeeding spot"?

But the question was will it be 1st & 10 or 1st & 25 after the penalty enforcement.

[AlUpstateNY]

But the question was will it be 1st & 10 or 1st & 25 after the penalty enforcement.

Since A legitimately gained a first down, then as described committed an UNS foul AFTER doing so, I would think they are entitled to their accomplishing a 1st down.  Unfortunately after doing so, they committed a serious (and unnecessary) foul AFTER achieving that 1st down, so they have also earned the penalty of doing so.  Set the chains to reflect their accomplishment, 1st & 10, then administer their "earned" penalty, changing their objective to 1st and 25.

[KWH]

Since A legitimately gained a first down, then as described committed an UNS foul AFTER doing so, I would think they are entitled to their accomplishing a 1st down.  Unfortunately after doing so, they committed a serious (and unnecessary) foul AFTER achieving that 1st down, so they have also earned the penalty of doing so.  Set the chains to reflect their accomplishment, 1st & 10, then administer their "earned" penalty, changing their objective to 1st and 25.

Typical Alf - Never let that pesky Rules Book get in the way of a great ball game!

[lawdog]

Since A legitimately gained a first down, then as described committed an UNS foul AFTER doing so, I would think they are entitled to their accomplishing a 1st down.  Unfortunately after doing so, they committed a serious (and unnecessary) foul AFTER achieving that 1st down, so they have also earned the penalty of doing so.  Set the chains to reflect their accomplishment, 1st & 10, then administer their "earned" penalty, changing their objective to 1st and 25.

FAIL WOW!

[CalhounLJ]

Since A legitimately gained a first down, then as described committed an UNS foul AFTER doing so, I would think they are entitled to their accomplishing a 1st down.  Unfortunately after doing so, they committed a serious (and unnecessary) foul AFTER achieving that 1st down, so they have also earned the penalty of doing so.  Set the chains to reflect their accomplishment, 1st & 10, then administer their "earned" penalty, changing their objective to 1st and 25.

NO, NO, NO.  Please read the rule book before trying to instruct people.

[AlUpstateNY]

NO, NO, NO.  Please read the rule book before trying to instruct people.

Wow, I feel so fortunate and blessed to have so many really smart rule experts handy to correct me.  Now, if perhaps one of you would be so generous , and kind, to simply explain where I, and possibly even others,  may have deviated from perfection, so I could avoid repeating such gratuitous mistakes .

[CalhounLJ]

Wow, I feel so fortunate and blessed to have so many really smart rule experts handy to correct me.  Now, if perhaps one of you would be so generous , and kind, to simply explain where I, and possibly even others,  may have deviated from perfection, so I could avoid repeating such gratuitous mistakes .

5-1-ART. 2 . . . A new series of downs is awarded: a. After a first, second or third down, a new series of downs shall be awarded only after considering the effect of any act during the down other than nonplayer or unsportsmanlike conduct fouls by A, and any dead-ball foul by B.

5.1.2 SITUATION B: During A1's run for a first down to B's 20-yard line, B12 commits a nonplayer foul for a substitute entering the field during the down, but not participating. Immediately following the down, A1 taunts an opponent. RUL- ING: If accepted, the penalty for B entering during the down is enforced from the succeeding spot. After the decision on this penalty, A will be penalized 15 yards for unsportsmanlike conduct and A will have the ball for a new series, first and 10. (3-7-6, 9-5-1a) 5.1.2

[AlUpstateNY]

5-1-ART. 2 . . . A new series of downs is awarded: a. After a first, second or third down, a new series of downs shall be awarded only after considering the effect of any act during the down other than nonplayer or unsportsmanlike conduct fouls by A, and any dead-ball foul by B.

5.1.2 SITUATION B: During A1's run for a first down to B's 20-yard line, B12 commits a nonplayer foul for a substitute entering the field during the down, but not participating. Immediately following the down, A1 taunts an opponent. RUL- ING: If accepted, the penalty for B entering during the down is enforced from the succeeding spot. After the decision on this penalty, A will be penalized 15 yards for unsportsmanlike conduct and A will have the ball for a new series, first and 10. (3-7-6, 9-5-1a) 5.1.2

The original question/comment suggests,
"After the end of the the run and the play, "A" draws a foul for USC."  accomplishing a new 1st down. It seems the Dead Ball USC should then be assessed from the succeeding spot, which is the "end of the run", subsequently moving the ball back 15 yards (penalty for the dead ball USC, would/should leave a 1st & 25 yd situation for A.

[Kalle]

The original question/comment suggests,
"After the end of the the run and the play, "A" draws a foul for USC."  accomplishing a new 1st down. It seems the Dead Ball USC should then be assessed from the succeeding spot, which is the "end of the run", subsequently moving the ball back 15 yards (penalty for the dead ball USC, would/should leave a 1st & 25 yd situation for A.

Case book 5.1.2 situation E (2022 book) seems pretty much on point to me, but as an NCAA official, I might be wildly off base here.

"The penalties for all unsportsmanlike and nonplayer fouls which occur during the down in which a new series is awarded, and dead-ball fouls prior to the subsequent ready-for-play signal, will be administered before the new line to gain is established and the chain and box are set. In all cases it will be first and 10 for A [...]."

[NVFOA_Ump]

Case book 5.1.2 situation E (2022 book) seems pretty much on point to me, but as an NCAA official, I might be wildly off base here.

"The penalties for all unsportsmanlike and nonplayer fouls which occur during the down in which a new series is awarded, and dead-ball fouls prior to the subsequent ready-for-play signal, will be administered before the new line to gain is established and the chain and box are set. In all cases it will be first and 10 for A [...]."

Same wording in the 2023 Case Book.  And it's been that way for many years.

[CalhounLJ]

The original question/comment suggests,
"After the end of the the run and the play, "A" draws a foul for USC."  accomplishing a new 1st down. It seems the Dead Ball USC should then be assessed from the succeeding spot, which is the "end of the run", subsequently moving the ball back 15 yards (penalty for the dead ball USC, would/should leave a 1st & 25 yd situation for A.

It is administered from the succeeding spot. What you are missing is that has nothing to do with setting the chains for the new series. The chains are not set until after the penalty is enforced.

Geez, ya'll amaze me at how difficult you can make an ask and answer question. There is nothing to speculate. As the rule and case book have explicitely stated, take care of all the penalties first, then set the chains.

[AlUpstateNY]

Case book 5.1.2 situation E (2022 book) seems pretty much on point to me, but as an NCAA official, I might be wildly off base here.

"The penalties for all unsportsmanlike and nonplayer fouls which occur during the down in which a new series is awarded, and dead-ball fouls prior to the subsequent ready-for-play signal, will be administered before the new line to gain is established and the chain and box are set. In all cases it will be first and 10 for A [...]."

Thank you Kalle, for pointing me in the right direction (in the Case Book).  Finding a "Pearl of Wisdom" is the 1st step in understanding it's value.