HARK, 'TIS TIME FOR SANTA'S WISH LIST........

[refjeff]

1.  Official's TO & send them out, but eliminate eye black, play cards, even knee pads over the knee. 
2. no
3. no
4. don't care, it never happens.
5. I hate Ohio's changing interpretation enough already.
6. no
7. yes
8. no
9. yes
10. yes
11. yes
12. no
13. yes
14. yes
15. no
16. no
17. no
18-25.  YES
no

[riffraft]

#4 being on the ballot reminds me of the year we all wanted to fix the illegal formation rule to count backs instead of linemen.  Instead, we got a rule change regarding prosthetic limbs falling off.

If I remember right that was in response to a RB losing his prosthetic in a game in Ohio the previous season.

[Ralph Damren]

If I remember right that was in response to a RB losing his prosthetic in a game in Ohio the previous season.

It was. The officials quicky killed the play and treated it as an inadvertant whistle. The proosal stemmed from that and seemed like a good solution to a rare event.

[Ralph Damren]

#4 being on the ballot reminds me of the year we all wanted to fix the illegal formation rule to count backs instead of linemen.  Instead, we got a rule change regarding prosthetic limbs falling off.

The challenge might become the judgement machenics of this .  It would seem that having the referee lay on his side ,peering at the ball arriving at Planet Earth , but beware of blocked kicks !

[toma]

(1) YES

(2)  NO

(3) NO.

(4) DONT CARE NEVER SEE IT USED.

(5) NO COACHES HAVING A HARD TIME WITH THE RULE NOW

(6) YES.

(7) NO

(8) YES Forward fumble > OOB > spot of fumble . Clock starts whwn ball back inbounds.

(9) YES

(10) NO

(11) YES ABOUT TIME

(12) NO

(13) NO

(14) NO

(15) NO

(16) YES

(17) NO

[AlUpstateNY]

As always, I enjoy in reading and value your opinions. I often use some of them in the upcoming debates. Please offer yours.

(1) Equipment Cops: more coloring rules on home jerseys, Pants covering thigh pads only needed. Sweat bands,any eye shadow and play cards can be worn anywhere. Equipment missing = TO charged to player's team.

(2) Holder's knee only nears to be NEAR ground.

(3) Major PF's are : Targeting, RTP/S/H,K, horse collar & DBPF by same player; on 2nd =  .

(4) Drop kick only if as ball touches ground.

(5) Reciever remains 'defensless' for first two steps.

(6) Fumble OOB W/less than 2 min.= start clock on RFP.

(7) Run clock during 1st down by A.

(8) Forward fumble > OOB > spot of fumble . Clock starts whwn ball back inbounds.

(9) Foul on K only if free kick is beyond field of play when touched by OOB R.

(10) Late in half/game, FGA prior to 4th down= OK with # exception.

(11) IFP if QB went beyond LOS, then behind to pass.

(12) Make IG a spot foul w/o any yardage.

(13) Reduce DPI to 10 /yds AND add AFD.

(14) Add AFD if DPI

(15) DBPF > USC , 2 USC +

(16) Fouls by B > B's 30, consider if full 15 would create 1st down.

(17) PF if by B = AFD.

(18 - 25) Proposals aimed at correcting/ clairfy/re-writing Rule 10.
 
Thank you for taking time tp respond. Happy Holidays to you and yours

Actually, if you really wanted to correct problems with #1, Making it a "CHARGED" Team T/O would likely reduce the actual frequency (liability) to 1 per team/per season.  There might well be an initial "Great hue & cry", but the vast majority of Coaching Staffs, suffering an initial such penalty would be FOREVER motivated to guarantee  NEVER suffering a repeat. Sometimes, you just have to get some people's attention.

[Ralph Damren]

I'll be totaling up your opinions later this week and indicating mine. If anyone has anything left to say (post) please do so soon. Thanks to all for sharing your thoughts.

[dch]

Regarding Rules Changes:
Please eliminate the phrase "basic spot" from the Rules Book.  The traditional use of the term basic spot was a step along the way when using the "all but one" principal for determining the enforcement spot.  The current definition (Rule 2) is meaningless and the phrase only adds confusion to our enforcement thought process.  Table 10-4 would be better to me if the column heading was changed from BASIC SPOT to ENFORCEMENT SPOT.  Any other "special cases" (i.e. exceptions) could be handled by just stating the enforcement spot.

5.  absolutely not re the 2 step
9.  makes sense to me
10.  ok with numbering exception anytime for field goal attempt  --  most officials are oblivious to it anyway.
13.  DPI should be spot foul and auto 1st down with a 15 yard max

Thanks for your considerations.
 

[bossman72]

Regarding Rules Changes:
Please eliminate the phrase "basic spot" from the Rules Book.  The traditional use of the term basic spot was a step along the way when using the "all but one" principal for determining the enforcement spot.  The current definition (Rule 2) is meaningless and the phrase only adds confusion to our enforcement thought process.  Table 10-4 would be better to me if the column heading was changed from BASIC SPOT to ENFORCEMENT SPOT.  Any other "special cases" (i.e. exceptions) could be handled by just stating the enforcement spot.

I've said the same thing.  I don't think they should get rid of ABO.  You still need to teach that.

The rule book used Basic Spot when they mean Enforcement spot quite often.  I wouldn't totally eliminate Basic spot because that's still an important concept.

[dch]

I feel that "basic spot" only has significance to those of us that have used it and understood it for many years.  If we were starting from scratch I don't think it is necessary.  Look at the current definition --- it says it is a point of reference but doesn't say what that reference point is  --- or how you determine where it is and how you use it on the field.

[ncwingman]

I feel that "basic spot" only has significance to those of us that have used it and understood it for many years.  If we were starting from scratch I don't think it is necessary.  Look at the current definition --- it says it is a point of reference but doesn't say what that reference point is  --- or how you determine where it is and how you use it on the field.

The current definition is a mess because they got rid of ABO and tried to patch over the holes that were left.

What they need to do is go back to the 2022 rule book as a starting point and try again. Basic spot, as a concept, can't be eliminated without fundamentally rewriting how penalties are enforced.

[bama_stripes]

13.  DPI should be spot foul and auto 1st down with a 15 yard max.

While I agree in theory, this would be problematic in practice.  Imagine training inexperienced officials to not only recognize and judge DPI, but to also accurately hit a spot with their flag.

[ElvisLives]

While I agree in theory, this would be problematic in practice.  Imagine training inexperienced officials to not only recognize and judge DPI, but to also accurately hit a spot with their flag.

What? None of your fouls are ever enforced from the spot of the foul (so nobody ever has to get their flag on, at least, the correct yard line)? What about intentional grounding (or other illegal forward passes)? Blocking/personal fouls by the offense behind the end of the run (and beyond the NZ, when there is one)? If they need any of those spots, how are they any different than a DPI spot?

[AlUpstateNY]

What? None of your fouls are ever enforced from the spot of the foul (so nobody ever has to get their flag on, at least, the correct yard line)? What about intentional grounding (or other illegal forward passes)? Blocking/personal fouls by the offense behind the end of the run (and beyond the NZ, when there is one)? If they need any of those spots, how are they any different than a DPI spot?

Fouls that happen during a play, all types of plays, can happen at various points along the play.  Most often a flag is thrown when the improper behavior is noticed and the play continues, and the violation is identified, by signal, when the play is complete.  That process has worked forEVER and is recognized & accepted.  The foul is recognized as providing an unfair advantage to one team, who often continues advancing the play, and/or provides a penalty for fouling. the fouled team, who has a CHOICE.  They can add the penalty from the spot of the foul, and repeat the down, or decline the penalty and accept the result of their play.

Pass Interference is somewhat different, in that the interference at one point, often disrupts the ability of the fouled team to successfully complete the remained of their plan, and a heavy (15 yards) is added to the point where the play started and the down repeated.  If the play was successfully completed, the offended team again, has the choice to accept the previous spot penalty, and repeat of the down or the result of the play.  In a considerable majority of instances, the result of either decision results in a 1st Down.

Automatically declaring the result of DPI, in all circumstances, an automic 1st down, seems an excessive addition to an already serious penalty.

[ElvisLives]

Fouls that happen during a play, all types of plays, can happen at various points along the play.  Most often a flag is thrown when the improper behavior is noticed and the play continues, and the violation is identified, by signal, when the play is complete.  That process has worked forEVER and is recognized & accepted.  The foul is recognized as providing an unfair advantage to one team, who often continues advancing the play, and/or provides a penalty for fouling. the fouled team, who has a CHOICE.  They can add the penalty from the spot of the foul, and repeat the down, or decline the penalty and accept the result of their play.

Pass Interference is somewhat different, in that the interference at one point, often disrupts the ability of the fouled team to successfully complete the remained of their plan, and a heavy (15 yards) is added to the point where the play started and the down repeated.  If the play was successfully completed, the offended team again, has the choice to accept the previous spot penalty, and repeat of the down or the result of the play.  In a considerable majority of instances, the result of either decision results in a 1st Down.

Automatically declaring the result of DPI, in all circumstances, an automic 1st down, seems an excessive addition to an already serious penalty.

Thanks, Al. That's helpful. 
But that is not at all what my question and comments are about. This is not about the wisdom or fairness of the penalty itself. This is about identifying the spot of the foul, when necessary. If the penalty (for any applicable foul) is enforced at the spot of the foul (as is noted above in bold italics), how does anybody know where that spot is? That is what this discussion is all about. If other fouls are sometimes penalized from the spot of the foul, then the necessity of marking those spots, as accurately as practical, is no different than marking the spot of the foul for DPI. The technique of placing a foul marker at least on the related yard line - if not the precise 2D spot on the field - is one that every official will need to have, regardless if DPI is, or is not, a spot foul. I am confident that, with patient training, inexperienced officials can pick up this skill quite quickly, and adeptly. They'll have to - for all of those other fouls that are, at least sometimes, penalized from the spot of the foul.  I am not saying that the rule change should, or should not, be adopted. I am only saying that the ability of officials to mark the spot of the foul should not be something that dictates whether the rule change is considered.

[Ralph Damren]

With the impending power outages we Mainers face, I felt today would be a good day to post the results and my opinions. Please note that not everyone answered every proposal, hence not all totalled the same number of votes.....

(1) EQUIPMENT POLICE STUFF : 5-5; I'd favor making knee pads optional and not to worry about eye shadow.

(2) HOLDER'S KNEE ONLY NEEDS TO BE NEAR GROUND : 2-9 ; no.

(3) 2 MAJOR PFs = PLAYER  : 0-10 ; no,the bookkeeping on this would add a burdensome duty to  .

(4)DROP KICK ONLY IF BALL IS KICKED AS IT HITS THE GROUND : 2-6 ; no.

(5) RECIEVER REMAINS DEFENSLESS FOR 2 STEPS : 2-9 ; no, why give a reciever a head start after he's landed?

(6) FUMBLE OOB W/LESS THAN 2 MIN.=CLOCK ON RFP :4-5; no, I not in favor of changes that require us to worry about more.

(7) RUN CLOCK THRU a MAKING THRU 1ST DOWN : 6-6; no, this would require 40" play clock from end of play in hopes the chain crew could keep up with excited kids.

(8)FORWARD FUMBLE >OOB>SPOT OF FUMBLE & CLOCK STARTS WHEN BALL RETURNS TO INBOUNDS : 5-6; no, see #6.

(9) FOUL ON K ONLY IF FREE KICK IS OVER/BEYOND FIELD 0F PLAY WHEN TOUCHED BY OOB R : 6-6; yes, this was the intent when current rule was passed in 2001 and fair.

(10) LATE IN HALF/GAME, FGA ATTEMPT PRIOR TO 4TH DOWN =OK WITH NUMBERING EXCEPTION : 8-3; YES.

(11) IFP IF QB WENT BEYOND LOS THEN bEHIND TO PASS : 9-3; yes.

(12) MAKE IG A SPOT FOUL W/O ANY YARDAGE : 5-6; no, IG rule has stretched enough.

(13)  REDUCE DPI TO 10 YARDS +ADD APD : 2-9; NO,SEE #14.

(14) ADD AFD TO DPI : 8-2; yes, games can be played by B inside of 30.

(15) DBPF > USC > 2 USCs >  : 4-6 ; no, often poor timing, not anger cause late hits.

(16) FOULS BY B INSIDE OF B'S 30, CONSIDER IF FULL 15 CREATES 1/10 : 4-7; no, need CPA for white hat.

(17) PF BY B = AFD : 3-8, no, offsets balance.

(18-25) PATCH UP RULE 10 : all 

 

[bossman72]

(18-25) PATCH UP RULE 10 : all 
 

Just please, for the love of God, if you do anything with Rule 10, just get rid of that damn table and bring back all but one with exceptions.

[Ralph Damren]

Just please, for the love of God, if you do anything with Rule 10, just get rid of that damn table and bring back all but one with exceptions.

I'm biased when I attend these meetings, as my first consideration is :" Will it be easy for the officials ??". Most will agree that last year's re-write was very complex to learn for newies. I tried to stress to all our officials that they needed to grab three new concepts :

(1) Fouls by A behind LOS = previous spot.

(2) Fouls by B when run ends behind LOS = previous spot.

(3) EXCEPTIONS ; ball fouls...IFP, IG, IB, IK =spot of foul; A foul in own EZ = safety.

I may try to mention that at our 'campfire meeting" ( informal gathering night before floor vote),but have my two proposals to lobby for first.

[dch]

I find the table helpful as it puts all the common things in one place.  If the column heading of "Basic Spot" was changed to "Enforcement Spot" it would be even better.  When I read basic spot and wonder what exactly does it mean I go to the Rule 2 definition --- and that doesn't help at all.  Just eliminate the term "basic spot" and say what spot to enforce the foul from.

[bama_stripes]

(3) EXCEPTIONS ; ball fouls...IFP, IG, IB, IK =spot of foul

Exception to the exceptions — for some unknown reason, Illegal Touching wasn’t included.

[bossman72]

Exception to the exceptions — for some unknown reason, Illegal Touching wasn’t included.

Agree.  Would like to see that included in the exceptions as another "ball" foul.

[Ralph Damren]

INHO, illegal touching wasn't included as it also includes a ineligible reciever touching a forward pass downfield.

IMHO, I thought the Patriots would win the Super Bowl  .

[ElvisLives]

IMHO, I thought the Patriots would win the Super Bowl  .

Uh, I think they got 6 of those, all with the same anonymous QB.

[bama_stripes]

INHO, illegal touching wasn't included as it also includes a ineligible reciever touching a forward pass downfield.

But we’re talking about Team A fouls behind the previous spot.

[Ralph Damren]

But we’re talking about Team A fouls behind the previous spot.

I'll ask, hopefully someone will answer.