Holder question

[SCHSref]

We seemed to have a spirited discussion on what is a holder and how this affords him protection in a scrimmage kick formation.

One voice said his knee was to be on the ground

The other voice said he didn't have to have his knee on the ground.

It was about roughing the holder and if he didn't have his knee on the ground, did this afford him protection.

Thoughts?

[d0d0joe]

I'm not a rules expert, but with a question like this I would look at definitions. 2-32-7 defines a holder and I don't see anything in that definition about his knee.

[SCHSref]

2-14-2a

[dch]

Good thought to go to Rule 2. 
Sure enough a holder doesn't have to have his knee on the ground per 2-32.7. 
But --- a scrimmage kick formation (2-14 art 2.a) requires knee on the ground,7 yards deep and in position to be the holder.

Now what are we to do?  Better look at Rule 9.  Then the Case Book.
Can you have Roughing (or Running Into) the Kicker or Holder if they weren't in a legal scrimmage kick formation?  When do they become a kicker or holder?  When does protection begin?

[CalhounLJ]

Good thought to go to Rule 2. 
Sure enough a holder doesn't have to have his knee on the ground per 2-32.7. 
But --- a scrimmage kick formation (2-14 art 2.a) requires knee on the ground,7 yards deep and in position to be the holder.

Now what are we to do?  Better look at Rule 9.  Then the Case Book.
Can you have Roughing (or Running Into) the Kicker or Holder if they weren't in a legal scrimmage kick formation?  When do they become a kicker or holder?  When does protection begin?

1. You don't have to be in a scrimmage kick formation to get a roughing the kicker. A kicker is the person who has kicked the ball.

2. You don't have to be in a scrimmage kick formation to have roughing the holder. A holder is a player who is holding the ball on the ground or a kicking tee.

[SCHSref]

1. You don't have to be in a scrimmage kick formation to get a roughing the kicker. A kicker is the person who has kicked the ball.

2. You don't have to be in a scrimmage kick formation to have roughing the holder. A holder is a player who is holding the ball on the ground or a kicking tee.

I agree. But, does the holder need to have his knee on the ground in order to grant the snapper protection?

[BetweenTheLines]

Yes, the knee has to be on the ground to be in a scrimmage kick formation. The snapper is protected in scrimmage kick formations.

[KDJBBBJ]

Also along with no snapper protection you can not use the numbering exception.  that also has to be in a scrimmage kick formation

[Ralph Damren]

Also along with no snapper protection you can not use the numbering exception.  that also has to be in a scrimmage kick formation

The holder is still the holdert and can be roughed, BUT if a knee isn't touching earth it isn't SKF. If in pre-game meeting, coach informs of a trick play from the holder in a 'catcher's crouch'  then inform him that there will be no snapper protection @ & numbering exception. This will usually kill the use of such. Remember:
 (1) To be in SKF,. the punter  needs to be 10 yards behind LOS;
 (2) To kick on an earlier down, only the snapper can have # exception;
 (3) on such a 'quick-kick', if  kicker is hit, we need to read -if R was trying to tackle = , if trying to block kick = 
 (4) a holder can take snap w/knee on ground THEN rise and do whatever.

[ncwingman]

Just so I'm sure I've got all this... By Rule^TM, 1) Roughing the Kicker can be called whenever a player kicks the ball, 2) Roughing the Holder can be called whenever a player holds the ball, 3) Roughing the Snapper can only be called based on the actions/position of the Kicker and (optionally) Holder?

In reality, a) I doubt any R linebacker will see the holder pick his knee up and realize he's allowed to charge into the snapper and b) if he does, it could still be a personal foul for unnecessary roughness.

Worse still, team comes out for the try, holder puts the block down and then sees the condition of the field -- "Ew, that's muddy... I don't want to put my knee in that..."

[Ralph Damren]

Just so I'm sure I've got all this... By Rule^TM, 1) Roughing the Kicker can be called whenever a player kicks the ball, 2) Roughing the Holder can be called whenever a player holds the ball, 3) Roughing the Snapper can only be called based on the actions/position of the Kicker and (optionally) Holder?

In reality, a) I doubt any R linebacker will see the holder pick his knee up and realize he's allowed to charge into the snapper and b) if he does, it could still be a personal foul for unnecessary roughness.

Worse still, team comes out for the try, holder puts the block down and then sees the condition of the field -- "Ew, that's muddy... I don't want to put my knee in that..."

Yes, that is the 'BY RULE' rule.The complexcity we made with SKF wasn't my idea, but I'm only 1 out of 51. I agree that linebackers are probably watching the ball and not the holder's knee. Holders are often the backup QB and wantto get their uniform/knee muddy as a badge of playing  .

[AlUpstateNY]

By "Rule" (Traffic Law) it's a violation to drive 66, in a zone with a posted 65 mile limit. As Officials, it's doubtful any of us would ever violate that requirement intentionally, but if we did who would likely be focused on that violation?

[NVFOA_Ump]

The holder is still the holdert and can be roughed, BUT if a knee isn't touching earth it isn't SKF. If in pre-game meeting, coach informs of a trick play from the holder in a 'catcher's crouch'  then inform him that there will be no snapper protection @ & numbering exception. This will usually kill the use of such. Remember:
 (1) To be in SKF,. the punter  needs to be 10 yards behind LOS;

I believe that we've discussed this before but let's refresh some memories.  In almost all "kick" formations there is at least one player, the "kicker", 10 yards behind the LOS. This is virtually always true whether there is a "holder" between the snapper and the "kicker" or not.  So in terms of a 4th down play with a "kicker" 10 yards behind the LOS doesn't by definition any combination of these formations qualify as a SKF?
So shouldn't (1) actually read "To be in SKF, the KICKER needs to be at least 10 yards behind the LOS".?

[Ralph Damren]

2-14-2a deals with place kicks and requires a holder with a knee on the ground 7 yards or more behind the LOS and a kicker 3 yards or less behind him.

2-14-2b deals with punts where the punter must be at lease 10 behind the LOS AND READY TO GET THE LONG SNAP.

On place kicks the kicker isn't in position to get the long snap. The rewritten SKF rule was to prevent AXI , my proposal- only if a scrimmage kick is apparent can the numbering exception be used -was much simpler.