FED RULES TOUCHDOWN OR NOT ?

[dammitbobby]

Why would you presume the NFHS has done EXACTLY that, but that because of the differences in skills, talents, physicality, capabilities the analysis doesn't support the same conclusions.

What you're missing, is that in general there's an excellent barometer for the 'still-developing young athletes' you speak of...  Texas follows NCAA rules with a few modifications, and we there's a LOT of football games (saw a stat somewhere that there are more HS games played in Texas than NCAA football games in any given week.) So it's not like there's nowhere to look to see how a rule impacts athletes at the high school level.

[ilyazhito]

Amen. NCAA rules can be a good starting point for games played by high schoolers. Up until this past season, MA also played football by NCAA rules.

[AlUpstateNY]

Amen. NCAA rules can be a good starting point for games played by high schoolers. Up until this past season, MA also played football by NCAA rules.

Might make one wonder why the other 48 (oops with MA conversion, make that 49/50) States reluctant to reach that same conclusion.

[Magician]

Might make one wonder why the other 48 (oops with MA conversion, make that 49/50) States reluctant to reach that same conclusion.

I would think a very good reason (and the motivator I heard why MA changed) is because they want a say in the rules. If NFHS adopted the NCAA rules, they would have no say on the rules committee. There could possibly be local modifications, but they would be very limited like in Texas. Having a voice in the rules you play by is probably very important to the NFHS. I doubt the NCAA would give NFHS much of a voice on their rules committee.

[AlUpstateNY]

Having a voice in the rules you play by is probably very important to the NFHS. I doubt the NCAA would give NFHS much of a voice on their rules committee.

Considering the differences in the skills, experience, maturity and physical stature between NFHS and NCAA (or NFL) participants, "Having a (significant) voice in the rules you play by" seems like a valid and prudent requirement.

[bama_stripes]

Why would you presume the NFHS has done EXACTLY that, but that because of the differences in skills, talents, physicality, capabilities the analysis doesn't support the same conclusions.

Example, please.

[Magician]

Considering the differences in the skills, experience, maturity and physical stature between NFHS and NCAA (or NFL) participants, "Having a (significant) voice in the rules you play by" seems like a valid and prudent requirement.

I think it has more to do with the experience, talent and skill of the officials to understand and enforce the rules as much as it does the ability of the players.

[AlUpstateNY]

Example, please.

The NFHS serves the needs of our Interscholastic level educational structure related to the supervision and guidance of physical development associated with a wide, and varied introduction and development of sports related activities, in most cases starting at the "beginner" (Instructional) level.  The implications of developing "Skills", necessary and particular to a wide range of activities, developing and encouraging positive interest in varied activities and the responsibility of introducing specific physical and emotional activities, and challenges, to still growing and maturing participants is challenging and often requires unique considerations.

As with the rest of the Interscholastic level mission, training, exposure to, understanding and developing appreciation for the responsibilities and rewards of participation is a primary objective to an audience of formative development and positive interest. Those progressing through and showing sufficient interest in, and developing the necessary skills and comprehension necessary to adapt and reasonably compete at a significantly higher level of required performance and enhanced competition EARN the right to continue  at a progressive, and more demanding level of participation, usually requiring a higher level of mastered skills, understanding, motivation, commitment and interest.

As the necessary skill levels progress, natural physical development requirements,  participant comprehension, safety and personal commitment and dedication requirements of participants increases to keep pace with the competitive nature of participation at a higher, more developed level, which inherently occasionally will require tweaking and adjustment of even BASIC game rules to keep pace with the enhanced requirements of a higher performance requirement necessary to satisfy the significantly higher performance capabilities of more mature and experienced participants and game objectives required at higher levels.

Advancement to higher competitive levels, by it's nature, requires comparable advancement in skills and performance, which at times may require advancing rule requirements and adjustments to keep pace, and balance, with the skill sets unique to each higher performance level which may be deemed excessive, unnecessary or even counterproductive at lower levels.

The same holds true for game Officials, where experience and continually developed skills are necessary to effectively handle higher performance and competition.  Officials working at multiple levels MUST ACCEPT THE RESPONSIBILITY, AND CHALLENGE to be able to effectively apply the specific Rules unique to the level of participation THEY ARE WORKING, although the added development and experience gained provides additional benefit and enhanced performance at ANY level worked.         

[ilyazhito]

The NFHS serves the needs of our Interscholastic level educational structure related to the supervision and guidance of physical development associated with a wide, and varied introduction and development of sports related activities, in most cases starting at the "beginner" (Instructional) level.  The implications of developing "Skills", necessary and particular to a wide range of activities, developing and encouraging positive interest in varied activities and the responsibility of introducing specific physical and emotional activities, and challenges, to still growing and maturing participants is challenging and often requires unique considerations.

As with the rest of the Interscholastic level mission, training, exposure to, understanding and developing appreciation for the responsibilities and rewards of participation is a primary objective to an audience of formative development and positive interest. Those progressing through and showing sufficient interest in, and developing the necessary skills and comprehension necessary to adapt and reasonably compete at a significantly higher level of required performance and enhanced competition EARN the right to continue  at a progressive, and more demanding level of participation, usually requiring a higher level of mastered skills, understanding, motivation, commitment and interest.

As the necessary skill levels progress, natural physical development requirements,  participant comprehension, safety and personal commitment and dedication requirements of participants increases to keep pace with the competitive nature of participation at a higher, more developed level, which inherently occasionally will require tweaking and adjustment of even BASIC game rules to keep pace with the enhanced requirements of a higher performance requirement necessary to satisfy the significantly higher performance capabilities of more mature and experienced participants and game objectives required at higher levels.

Advancement to higher competitive levels, by it's nature, requires comparable advancement in skills and performance, which at times may require advancing rule requirements and adjustments to keep pace, and balance, with the skill sets unique to each higher performance level which may be deemed excessive, unnecessary or even counterproductive at lower levels.

The same holds true for game Officials, where experience and continually developed skills are necessary to effectively handle higher performance and competition.  Officials working at multiple levels MUST ACCEPT THE RESPONSIBILITY, AND CHALLENGE to be able to effectively apply the specific Rules unique to the level of participation THEY ARE WORKING, although the added development and experience gained provides additional benefit and enhanced performance at ANY level worked.       

Then why is there no difference between the rules at the different levels of competition (middle school, subvarsity, and varsity) other than period length? If the rules are supposed to be designed in a way that promotes development, then where is the increase in difficulty built in as the level of competition increases within NFHS rules? Maybe have middle school rules have shorter quarters and simpler (though not always equitable ) penalty enforcements, with a more lenient mercy rule, then adjust up to a larger mercy rule and high school rules with some college features, and finally to college rules at the varsity level. This would allow rules to be more tailored to the competition level, just as difficulty settings change how a video game might play.

[AlUpstateNY]

Then why is there no difference between the rules at the different levels of competition (middle school, subvarsity, and varsity) other than period length?

Actually, at many (if not most) subvarsity levels there are revised rules currently in effect within the NFHS rule structure.  Revised rule application for "Freshman" levels, "Modified" levels and some JV levels are available for schools.  If those options are NOT available in your service area, you might inquire locally as to why not, or if previously determined to not be practiced, a little research (locally) as to why not might answer your question, as such decisions are made locally.

[bama_stripes]

Alf, I gave you a specific example of one rule that could possibly work it’s way down to the NFHS level, and asked you to provide a specific example to bolster your argument.  Instead, you provided a rambling dissertation as to why NFHS doesn’t use the complete NCAA or NFL rules set.

Perhaps your keyboard is in need of some Kaopectate.

[Ralph Damren]

I recall two proposals that I submitted that copied the NCAA rule and became rules after some adjustments....

In 2009 I proposed the NCAA definition of a scrimmage kick formation could exist only when a scrimmage kick was expected - remember this was the era of "Alpha II". A more detailed rule was felt necessary and passed overwhelmingly.

In 2014 I proposed the NCAA definition of dueling dead ball fouls offset, even if there was more on one team then the other. It failed on the floor with the rationale that this would allow some of the fouls to go unpunished which is not the NFHS philosophy.

In 2015 I proposed that dueling dead ball fouls offset on a pro-rata basis. It passed overwhelmingly.

The rules committee uses their own mind in writing the rules. I recall my years on the Editorial Committee when we would often look to see how the NCAA wrote the rule, if the approved change was similar, before putting the final touches on the verbiage. 

[AlUpstateNY]

Alf, I gave you a specific example of one rule that could possibly work it’s way down to the NFHS level, and asked you to provide a specific example to bolster your argument.  Instead, you provided a rambling dissertation as to why NFHS doesn’t use the complete NCAA or NFL rules set. Perhaps your keyboard is in need of some Kaopectate.

If only Kaopectate was the answer, Bama, but, alas it's not.  When an answer doesn't satisfy a question, there's only two possible approaches; provide further detail &/or clarity, or determine whether the questioner isn't really seeking a specific answer.  I usually accept the risk of erring on the side of trying to provide additional detail and clarity, but sometimes, based on the question,  penetration seems simply impossible, and additional detail and/or clarity serves no purpose.

Rather than wander through aimless speculation, and you have a SPECIFIC issues in mind, I might suggest you forward your question through your Organizational Rules contact, who if necessary can forward it through their appropriate State, Regional and or NFHS HQ rules contact to provide you with an official answer, to whatever you feel necessary or helpful. 

Normally (but not always) I try to avoid the necessity of using Kaopectate on my keyboard, but I do spray it with HORSE HOCKEY repellent regularly, which acts much the same as anti-virus protection.   

[HLinNC]

Actually we play shorter quarters in NFHS for MS- 8:00 vs 12:00, sometimes 10:00 in JV, plus the MS ball is smaller.

[CalhounLJ]

Considering the differences in the skills, experience, maturity and physical stature between NFHS and NCAA (or NFL) participants, "Having a (significant) voice in the rules you play by" seems like a valid and prudent requirement.

I'm interested in how this would work out. this sounds logical, but I cannot think deeply enough to identify which particular rules in the NFHS are tweaked/invented/implemented to account for the differences in the skills, experience, maturity, and physical stature between High School athletes and those participating at the collegiate and/or NFL level. Other than length of game, quarter, and other time-related changes, can you be more specific as to which specific rules which are acceptable for college and not acceptable for High school aged athletes? In regard to the skills, experience, maturity, and physical stature argument you are presenting?

[AlUpstateNY]

I'm interested in how this would work out. this sounds logical, but I cannot think deeply enough to identify which particular rules in the NFHS are tweaked/invented/implemented to account for the differences in the skills, experience, maturity, and physical stature between High School athletes and those participating at the collegiate and/or NFL level. Other than length of game, quarter, and other time-related changes, can you be more specific as to which specific rules which are acceptable for college and not acceptable for High school aged athletes? In regard to the skills, experience, maturity, and physical stature argument you are presenting?

Are you serious? You're looking for examples of differences (In regard to the skills, experience, maturity, and physical stature) between players at the Interscholastic and Collegiate (not to mention the NFL) levels?  You might consider, next time your working a Freshman, Modified, JV or most Varsity HS games take a good look at the players.  If possible, when getting to the field takes you through a locker room, notice the players BEFORE they put their equipment on.

Like the NCAA (and NFL), NFHS has a limited, select group of rule specific experts, who have access to a whole gaggle of additional experts and unlimited reference material, studies and practices geared towards making the types of decisions and judgments concerning players and game conditions relating to the objectives of the game, targeted to the Interscholastic level.  They also welcome suggestions, advice and ideas about the applicability of rule adjustments SPECIFIC to the Interscholastic level, and make yearly reviews and judgments whether those suggestions are appropriate, or not.

For over 100 years, after all suggestions and ideas are considered, reviewed, debated and assessed rule adjustments are either made, or passed on, to game officials who are charged with implementing what the rule makers decide.  Other than being encouraged to share their experiences, impressions, opinions, complaints, support, practicality of final rule decisions, game officials are then expected, and required, to thoroughly understand, accept and enforce those final rule decision, as presented.

With VERY few exceptions, I've found it far more practical, logical and appropriate to accept the wisdom, knowledge, experience and judgments of experienced NFHS rule makers, although should I have a serious question, or see a problematic difference between how specific situations may differ with other codes, I'm aware of the existing process and direction currently available,  should I wish to offer any suggestions for improvement. 

You might consider that process a more suitable and appropriate source to seek answers to your question.

[CalhounLJ]

Maybe you're missing the point. I understand there's a difference in the physical makeup of the various organizations you have mentioned, and agree those differences exist. In trying to understand your position, I reread all of your posts, and your position seems to be that we need to use NFHS rules in High School because at least some of those rules have been adapted to compensate for these physical differences, along with the mental capabilities and maturity level of the competitetors. I'm simply asking you to point out the specific rules that have been tweaked/adapted, or otherwise altered to compensate for these differences. For example, the play in question on this post. As far as I know, the technical aspect of the rule has not been altered between at least collegiate athletics and NFHS. They are basically the same. One foot down with possession and control = catch. What aspect of this rule, if any, has been adapted in consideration of the differences you have been mentioning? (i.e., physical makeup, maturity level, mental capacity, etc.) I'm really trying to understand your position, but we need to move from abstract theory to objective reality. If you can help me out with that, I would really appreciate it. Which specific rules have been modified?

[AlUpstateNY]

Maybe you're missing the point. I understand there's a difference in the physical makeup of the various organizations you have mentioned, and agree those differences exist. In trying to understand your position, I reread all of your posts, and your position seems to be that we need to use NFHS rules in High School because at least some of those rules have been adapted to compensate for these physical differences, along with the mental capabilities and maturity level of the competitetors. I'm simply asking you to point out the specific rules that have been tweaked/adapted, or otherwise altered to compensate for these differences. For example, the play in question on this post. As far as I know, the technical aspect of the rule has not been altered between at least collegiate athletics and NFHS. They are basically the same. One foot down with possession and control = catch. What aspect of this rule, if any, has been adapted in consideration of the differences you have been mentioning? (i.e., physical makeup, maturity level, mental capacity, etc.) I'm really trying to understand your position, but we need to move from abstract theory to objective reality. If you can help me out with that, I would really appreciate it. Which specific rules have been modified?

It's been some time since I had the need to be aware of the specific differences between NCAA and NFHS rules, which I recall was, at the time, indicated to be in the neighborhood of 192.  There were publications available back then that listed each and every distinction, the majority of which were minor,and/or insignificant.  I wouldn't be the appropriate source to help you be aware of, or understand, the current situation or complete list of differences, as both sets of rules are subject to annual revision.  However,  a Google search might help you find whatever resources are currently available. 

Understanding those differences has always been an additional challenge for Game Officials working at both levels.  I might suggest you seek out Officials (or Official's Organizations) in your area, who either are currently working in both environments, or had previously done so and might have since chosen a single environment and may remember appropriate resources that may be of assistance. 

[CalhounLJ]

It's been some time since I had the need to be aware of the specific differences between NCAA and NFHS rules, which I recall was, at the time, indicated to be in the neighborhood of 192.  There were publications available back then that listed each and every distinction, the majority of which were minor,and/or insignificant.  I wouldn't be the appropriate source to help you be aware of, or understand, the current situation or complete list of differences, as both sets of rules are subject to annual revision.  However,  a Google search might help you find whatever resources are currently available. 

Understanding those differences has always been an additional challenge for Game Officials working at both levels.  I might suggest you seek out Officials (or Official's Organizations) in your area, who either are currently working in both environments, or had previously done so and might have since chosen a single environment and may remember appropriate resources that may be of assistance.

I'm surprised. Especially since you are so dogmatic about the differences between NFHS and NCAA being so completely necessary because of the differences in the athletes. Is this still your position? If so, is your position based on fact? Or assumption? If it's based on fact, it seems you would at least have a working knowledge of those rules that support your position.

OAN, you keep point me and others on this board to appropriate resources to find out the questions we have been asking of you. Maybe you should avail yourself of those resources and come back with an informed position.

[PABJNR]

Watch how simple this is......... and I think it is what Calhoun was seeking.  My opinion, primarily based on safety and enforcement by officials, the NFHS BBW rule is better suited for interscholastic athletes vs the rule in NCAA which is more suited for the higher level athletes and officials.  Now I wish the restricted player rule for NFHS was closer to NCAA as I don't carry a yardstick with me as part of my equipment to determine the FBZ....but that is what it is and we use our best judgement.

Also my opinion many things could be identical for NCAA and NFHS, i.e. holding, OPI, DPI, false start...these are the type of things that should remain consistent in football from pee-wee on up. 

[AlUpstateNY]

I'm surprised. Especially since you are so dogmatic about the differences between NFHS and NCAA being so completely necessary because of the differences in the athletes. Is this still your position? If so, is your position based on fact? Or assumption? If it's based on fact, it seems you would at least have a working knowledge of those rules that support your position.

OAN, you keep point me and others on this board to appropriate resources to find out the questions we have been asking of you. Maybe you should avail yourself of those resources and come back with an informed position.

I really don't have any burning questions, CalhounLJ, as I'm usually willing to accept the blatant and obvious at face value. Having  personally observed, what I consider obvious differences between growing children and young adults, at least regarding, "physical differences, along with the mental capabilities and maturity level of the competitetors.(sp)

I really don't require written confirmation or assurance of my assessments. NFHS rules are designed to provide guidance for an introductory level to the complexity of the game of Football, that may evolve and extend, in the areas you list, for those developing the necessary additional physical, maturity and mental skills to continue at a decidedly more advanced level of the game.  The basic fact that the game rules and requirements advance to better suit the advancing capabilities of participants seems an obvious and rational progression.

Since these issues seem so complex and mysterious to you, I wouldn't want to provide you with incomplete or confusing directions, so I referred you to what, I hope, are still published actual lists of rule differences between NCAA and NFHS Football rules and some ideas as to who might point you in the right direction to acquiring them.  My present interests are focused exclusively on the NFHS rules environment, so that is where my concentration is directed.

[CalhounLJ]

I really don't have any burning questions, CalhounLJ, as I'm usually willing to accept the blatant and obvious at face value. Having  personally observed, what I consider obvious differences between growing children and young adults, at least regarding, "physical differences, along with the mental capabilities and maturity level of the competitetors.(sp)

I really don't require written confirmation or assurance of my assessments. NFHS rules are designed to provide guidance for an introductory level to the complexity of the game of Football, that may evolve and extend, in the areas you list, for those developing the necessary additional physical, maturity and mental skills to continue at a decidedly more advanced level of the game.  The basic fact that the game rules and requirements advance to better suit the advancing capabilities of participants seems an obvious and rational progression.

Since these issues seem so complex and mysterious to you, I wouldn't want to provide you with incomplete or confusing directions, so I referred you to what, I hope, are still published actual lists of rule differences between NCAA and NFHS Football rules and some ideas as to who might point you in the right direction to acquiring them.  My present interests are focused exclusively on the NFHS rules environment, so that is where my concentration is directed.

In other words, it's all double talk without any logical basis for what you're suggesting.

[CalhounLJ]

Watch how simple this is......... and I think it is what Calhoun was seeking.  My opinion, primarily based on safety and enforcement by officials, the NFHS BBW rule is better suited for interscholastic athletes vs the rule in NCAA which is more suited for the higher level athletes and officials.  Now I wish the restricted player rule for NFHS was closer to NCAA as I don't carry a yardstick with me as part of my equipment to determine the FBZ....but that is what it is and we use our best judgement.

Also my opinion many things could be identical for NCAA and NFHS, i.e. holding, OPI, DPI, false start...these are the type of things that should remain consistent in football from pee-wee on up.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. I am sure there are a handful of rules that have (correctly) been amended to promote the safety and well being of younger players. I'm also sure there are a limited number that may have been changed to better correlate to the mental development/maturity level of the competitors. But I strongly disagree with the notion that these minor tweaks are the reason why NFHS rules exist. I assume Magician is super close to correct in his assumption that the ruleset was invented to give administrators a voice. I suspect that many, if not most of the rules differences are differences of preference, not safety.

[AlUpstateNY]

I assume Magician is super close to correct in his assumption that the ruleset was invented to give administrators a voice. I suspect that many, if not most of the rules differences are differences of preference, not safety.

There in lies the beauty of this Country, your assumptions might be correct, or just as likely could be all wet.  However, either way you're entitled to form your own conclusions, to whatever extent YOU alone decide.

I've learned, sometimes harder than should have been necessary, not to spend a lot of effort vexing about that which I don't have any control over, especially when I have confidence in the motivation, integrity and effort of those who have been assigned control and I believe work hard and do a good job, for the right reasons, exercising it.

Working at multiple levels with different rules adds to an already challenging job.  If that's a choice YOU have decided to accept, YOU have absolute control over how long YOU need deal with the challenge, rather than expect everyone else to adjust.

[CalhounLJ]

Working at multiple levels with different rules adds to an already challenging job.  If that's a choice YOU have decided to accept, YOU have absolute control over how long YOU need deal with the challenge, rather than expect everyone else to adjust.

This is excellent advice for ALL of US to FOLLOW.