Punt Play

[wvoref]

This play was brought up at our meeting last night, it actually occurred in a reserve game.  I am semi retired and was the Rules Interpreter for our Association up until this year but am still sort of the go to guy on play situations, so the young official who was working referee brought this play to me.  Apparently he was enjoying working the referee position until this play occurred.  4th and 4 on K45, K punts a sky ball to R's 40 where R11 gives a quick invalid fair catch signal (flag), then K21 runs into R11 (flag).  R11 catches punt on R40 and proceeds to run 20 yards downfield (flag).  Discuss.  I'll check in later and see if it agrees with what I told him.

[GA Umpire]

This play was brought up at our meeting last night, it actually occurred in a reserve game.  I am semi retired and was the Rules Interpreter for our Association up until this year but am still sort of the go to guy on play situations, so the young official who was working referee brought this play to me.  Apparently he was enjoying working the referee position until this play occurred.  4th and 4 on K45, K punts a sky ball to R's 40 where R11 gives a quick invalid fair catch signal (flag), then K21 runs into R11 (flag).  R11 catches punt on R40 and proceeds to run 20 yards downfield (flag).  Discuss.  I'll check in later and see if it agrees with what I told him.

If K21 ran into R11 before he caught (possessed) the kick, it is a double foul and the down is replayed.  Both are then live ball fouls.  Team R did not get the ball with "clean hands".  4th and 4 on K's 45 if the DoG foul is ignored.  If the DoG foul is not ignored, 1st and 10 for Team K at the 50.

[GA Umpire]

This play was brought up at our meeting last night, it actually occurred in a reserve game.  I am semi retired and was the Rules Interpreter for our Association up until this year but am still sort of the go to guy on play situations, so the young official who was working referee brought this play to me.  Apparently he was enjoying working the referee position until this play occurred.  4th and 4 on K45, K punts a sky ball to R's 40 where R11 gives a quick invalid fair catch signal (flag), then K21 runs into R11 (flag).  R11 catches punt on R40 and proceeds to run 20 yards downfield (flag).  Discuss.  I'll check in later and see if it agrees with what I told him.

If K21 ran into R11 after he possessed the kick, then there are two dead ball fouls and one live ball foul.  PSK on the invalid fair catch signal as the whistle should have sounded immediately.  1st and 10 for Team R on Team R's 45, after the dead ball foul for a personal foul and the DoG foul are administered.

[ncwingman]

If K21 ran into R11 before he caught (possessed) the kick, it is a double foul and the down is replayed.  Both are then live ball fouls.  Team R did not get the ball with "clean hands".  4th and 4 on K's 45 if the DoG foul is ignored.  If the DoG foul is not ignored, 1st and 10 for Team K at the 50.

I don't think "clean hands" applies because R's first foul is PSK. R could keep the ball by declining the KCI foul, which I believe they would do... since otherwise the dead ball, delay of game foul would give K a first down, as you noted.

If R declines K's foul, it's 1st and 10 R at R30.

[GA Umpire]

I don't think "clean hands" applies because R's first foul is PSK. R could keep the ball by declining the KCI foul, which I believe they would do... since otherwise the dead ball, delay of game foul would give K a first down, as you noted.

If R declines K's foul, it's 1st and 10 R at R30.

I stand corrected.  10-2-3

[Jim D]

THere should be no DOG on this play.  If the BJ whistles it dead as he should, the runner will stop.  If the BJ doesn't blow it dead, then it's on the BJ and not on the runner.  The only time you should ever have a DOG after a FC signal is if the runner just plain refuses to stop after the whistle is blown.   If he starts to run, just blow it dead and keep the flag in your pocket.

[ncwingman]

THere should be no DOG on this play.  If the BJ whistles it dead as he should, the runner will stop.  If the BJ doesn't blow it dead, then it's on the BJ and not on the runner.  The only time you should ever have a DOG after a FC signal is if the runner just plain refuses to stop after the whistle is blown.   If he starts to run, just blow it dead and keep the flag in your pocket.

I agree... and honestly, I'd probably say that there probably shouldn't be an invalid fair catch signal either, unless there was clearly intent to deceive.

If R11 changes his mind mid signal and wants to run instead of fair catch, too bad -- he gave a signal, it's a fair catch, ball is dead. His post catch run shouldn't be DOG unless he goes 90 yards for a "touchdown" despite a chorus of whistles in his ear.

However, if we have three flags on the ground and we're enforcing three penalties, I stand by my earlier comment.

[wvoref]

Pretty much nailed how our discussion went. We discussed the mechanics involved and felt that the DOG could have been avoided but if we were going to enforce it we would have to explain to R's captain (and ideally one of the wings would be explaining to his coach) that to avoid K getting the ball back and a 1st down they would have to utilize the pseudo clean hands aspect of PSK and decline K's KCI and then have both the IFCS and DOG marked off against them but allowing them to have the ball.

[FLAHL]

I am semi retired and was the Rules Interpreter for our Association up until this year but am still sort of the go to guy on play situations, so the young official who was working referee brought this play to me.

Contrats on your semi-retirement Ref.  I'm sure your association appreciates the fact that you're sticking around and continuing to help out.  My first white hat hung up his flags a few years ago and is now in his 80s.  He still comes to a couple of my games every year and provides feedback and pointers.  It's invaluable. 

[wvoref]

Luckily have a good ways to go to reach my eighties but definitely hope I can still contribute at that age. Thanks and kudos to your original white hat