hEAR YE, HERE YE..IT'S GROUNDHOG DAY, HERE THEY ARE......

[SCHSref]

NEW: 7-5-2 EXCEPTION 2c : The passer is the ONLY player to possess the ball after the snap ends.

Yes, but the player who originally took the snap was the player who passed the ball, correct?

[Snapper]

Yes, but the player who originally took the snap was the player who passed the ball, correct?

A1 (the QB) receives the snap.  He now has player possession of the ball, and if he meets other criteria, he could legally throw the ball away.

But instead, he hands the ball to A2, who now has player possession.  Legal grounding is off the table now for everyone.

A2 runs a couple of steps forward and now throws a backwards pass to A1.  A1 has player possession again.

A1 can’t find anyone open, so he throws the ball away.  He can’t legally do that because he wasn’t the only player to have possession.

Does that help?

[ted skoundrianos]

Ralph, I have a question A on 50 yard land the quarterback throws a incomplete pass. there was holding at 40 yard line. That is a pervious spot foul enforcement from 50 yard line 1st & 20. Right.

[ted skoundrianos]

Ralph, I have a question. A has the ball 1 & 10 at 50 yard line. The quarterback throws a incomplete pass. there was a holding called at the 40 yard line. The enforcement is from the previous spot which would be from the 50 yard line 1 & 20. Right.

[ncwingman]

Ralph, I have a question. A has the ball 1 & 10 at 50 yard line. The quarterback throws a incomplete pass. there was a holding called at the 40 yard line. The enforcement is from the previous spot which would be from the 50 yard line 1 & 20. Right.

While I'm not Ralph, and haven't seen the new rule in its entirety, the answer to that question better be "Yes" or they've really dun goofed on this whole thing.

The new rule should essentially mean that a holding foul by A is enforced ABO, but no further back than the LOS. Since the basic spot for an incomplete pass is the previous spot, the only possible enforcement spot is now the previous spot and it would be 1&20 from the A-40.

[ted skoundrianos]

ncwingman, thank you for getting back to me. The reason I asked the question. Here are the new portions of 10-4. The basic spot is previous spot: D for a foul by B when a related run end behind the LOS before change of possession. E For a foul by A behind the LOS when a run ends or related runs end beyond LOS. I though the the ABO only applies on run beyond LOS, COP, ON KICK OFF RETURNS. I though the rule change was A foul by A behind the LOS would be previous spot enforcement. With exceptions. A. Illegal batting or kicking when a foul occurs behind the end of the run or related run. B. Illegal Patricipation as 9-6-4a and 9-6-4g. C. Illegal pass as in 7-5-2c and 7-52d. D. For a foul that occurs beyond the LOS during a running play as defined in 10-3-2 when run or related run end beyond the LOS. E. For a foul that occurs behind the run or related run following a change of possession.

[CalhounLJ]

Here are the NEW portions of 10-4 :

10-4-2 The basic spot is the previous spot :
   
   d. For a foul by B when the run or the related run ends behind the line of scrimmage before a change of possession.
   e. For a foul by A that occurs behind the line of scrimmagr when the run or related run ends beyond the line of scrimmage.

10-4-4 (NEW) The basic spot is the spot of the foul for:

   a. Illegal batting or kicking when the foul occurs behind the end of the run or related run.
   b. Illegal participation as in 9-6-4a and 9-6-4g.
   c.  An illegal forward pass as in 7-5-2c and 7-5-2d.
   d. For a foul that occurs beyond the line of scrimmagr durimng a running play as defined in 10-3-2 when the run or related run ends beyond the line of scrimmage.
   e. For a foul that occurs behind the run or related run following a change of possession.

This is the wordage that we voted on. The Editorial Committee may then tweak it.

Thanks Ralph. So, according to this language, a holding foul by A behind the line of scrimmage is still enforced from the spot of the foul? Because there’s nothing here that indicates otherwise. ABO dictates fouls by A behind the basic spot are enforced from spot of foul.

If the committee is trying to get the previous spot as the spot of enforcement in 10-4-2 (e), that language needs to be changed. Simply changing the basic spot from end of run to previous spot won’t do it.



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[CalhounLJ]

While I'm not Ralph, and haven't seen the new rule in its entirety, the answer to that question better be "Yes" or they've really dun goofed on this whole thing.

The new rule should essentially mean that a holding foul by A is enforced ABO, but no further back than the LOS. Since the basic spot for an incomplete pass is the previous spot, the only possible enforcement spot is now the previous spot and it would be 1&20 from the A-40.

I’m sure that’s what they want, but they better clean up the language if what Ralph posted is the actual rule, because it doesn’t say that. The change as posted doesn’t affect ABO in this situation.


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[CalhounLJ]

Here are the NEW portions of 10-4 :


10-4-4 (NEW) The basic spot is the spot of the foul for:

   d. For a foul that occurs beyond the line of scrimmage during a running play as defined in 10-3-2 when the run or related run ends beyond the line of scrimmage.

This is the wordage that we voted on. The Editorial Committee may then tweak it.

 I’m also confused about why this is needed. Are we now saying that a foul by either team is enforced from the spot of the foul instead of the end of the run, even if the foul is downfield from the end of the run?

Example 1. A’s run ends at the A40. B clips an A blocker at the 50. According to this change, we go to the 50 to enforce the foul? A 25yd penalty?

Example 2. A’s run ends at the A40. A72 is holding at the 50. So we go to the 50 and mark off 10 back to the A40? So essentially A is not penalized?

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[CalhounLJ]

IMHO, they have “basic spot” confused with “enforcement spot.”


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[Ralph Damren]

WHOOPS  I didn't turn the page  . This proposed change was so lengthly that it covered two pages. Add to what I've already said/typed....

10-4-8 :Unless the provisions of 10-4-2 through 10-4-7 or 10-5 apply, the basic spot is the previous spot for a foul which occurs during a running as defined in 10-3-2 when the run or related run ends behind the line of scrimmage.

10-6 : Unless otherwise listed in Section 4 and 5, a penalty for a foul occurring during a play is enforced from the basic spot with the exception of a foul(s) by the offense which occurs behind the basic spot when the run or relayed run ends behind the line of scrimmage. These fouls are venforced from the previous spot.

......Sorry, guys, I didn't origionally turn the page.   

[CalhounLJ]

WHOOPS  I didn't turn the page  . This proposed change was so lengthly that it covered two pages. Add to what I've already said/typed....

10-4-8 :Unless the provisions of 10-4-2 through 10-4-7 or 10-5 apply, the basic spot is the previous spot for a foul which occurs during a running as defined in 10-3-2 when the run or related run ends behind the line of scrimmage.

10-6 : Unless otherwise listed in Section 4 and 5, a penalty for a foul occurring during a play is enforced from the basic spot with the exception of a foul(s) by the offense which occurs behind the basic spot when the run or relayed run ends behind the line of scrimmage. These fouls are venforced from the previous spot.

......Sorry, guys, I didn't origionally turn the page.   

Thanks. 10-6 fixed it. 


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[ted skoundrianos]

Fouls by A behind the LOS Are they enforce from the previous spot. 1 & 10 AT 50 YARD LINE A THROWS a PASS THAT COMPLETED OR IN COMPLETED THERE WAS A HOLD AT 40 YARD LINE. Is that a previous spot since it was behind LOS. 1 & 10 AT 50 YARD LINE A RUN LOSES 5 YARDS BUT THERE A HOLD AT 45 YARD LINE IS THAT A PREVIOUS SPOT FOUL.

[CalhounLJ]

Here are the NEW portions of 10-4 :

10-4-2 The basic spot is the previous spot :
   
   d. For a foul by B when the run or the related run ends behind the line of scrimmage before a change of possession.
   e. For a foul by A that occurs behind the line of scrimmagr when the run or related run ends beyond the line of scrimmage.

10-4-4 (NEW) The basic spot is the spot of the foul for:

   a. Illegal batting or kicking when the foul occurs behind the end of the run or related run.
   b. Illegal participation as in 9-6-4a and 9-6-4g.
   c.  An illegal forward pass as in 7-5-2c and 7-5-2d.
   d. For a foul that occurs beyond the line of scrimmagr durimng a running play as defined in 10-3-2 when the run or related run ends beyond the line of scrimmage.
   e. For a foul that occurs behind the run or related run following a change of possession.

This is the wordage that we voted on. The Editorial Committee may then tweak it.

Somebody help me with 10-4-4(d). Specifically, when the foul occurs in advance of the end of the run. 


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[HLinNC]

Somebody help me with 10-4-4(d).

Team A 1-10 at A40 yard line.  RB A32 runs and is downed (or fumbles) at the B45 yl.  WR A88 holds safety B21 during the run (or while the ball is loose) at the B41 yl. (A65 recovers the fumble at the B43 yl.)

Team B accepts the holding penalty.  The penalty is enforced 10 yards from the end of the run/related run at the B45 yl as the basic spot.

[bama_stripes]

Somebody help me with 10-4-4(d). Specifically, when the foul occurs in advance of the end of the run. 


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Same as last year, since the run ended beyond the LOS.  Basic spot (and enforcement spot) is end of run.

[Ralph Damren]

It's just a fancy way of saying the all-but-one applies . While the end-of-run is the basic spot, IF the foul occurred behind the basic spot but beyond the LOS, the enforcement spot is the spot of the foul.
Note, if the run ended BEYOND the LOS, but A's foul occurred Behind the LOS, the previous spot would be the enforcement spot (10-4-2e).

                                                                                                                      Hope this helps.

[CalhounLJ]

Team A 1-10 at A40 yard line.  RB A32 runs and is downed (or fumbles) at the B45 yl.  WR A88 holds safety B21 during the run (or while the ball is loose) at the B41 yl. (A65 recovers the fumble at the B43 yl.)

Team B accepts the holding penalty.  The penalty is enforced 10 yards from the end of the run/related run at the B45 yl as the basic spot.

That's not what I'm reading:

10-4-4 (NEW) The basic spot is the spot of the foul for:

 
   d. For a foul that occurs beyond the line of scrimmagr durimng a running play as defined in 10-3-2 when the run or related run ends beyond the line of scrimmage.

[CalhounLJ]

Same as last year, since the run ended beyond the LOS.  Basic spot (and enforcement spot) is end of run.

That's not what I'm reading:

10-4-4 (NEW) The basic spot is the spot of the foul for:

 
   d. For a foul that occurs beyond the line of scrimmagr durimng a running play as defined in 10-3-2 when the run or related run ends beyond the line of scrimmage.

[CalhounLJ]

It's just a fancy way of saying the all-but-one applies . While the end-of-run is the basic spot, IF the foul occurred behind the basic spot but beyond the LOS, the enforcement spot is the spot of the foul.
Note, if the run ended BEYOND the LOS, but A's foul occurred Behind the LOS, the previous spot would be the enforcement spot (10-4-2e).

                                                                                                                      Hope this helps.

That's not what I'm reading:

10-4-4 (NEW) The basic spot is the spot of the foul for:

 
   d. For a foul that occurs beyond the line of scrimmagr durimng a running play as defined in 10-3-2 when the run or related run ends beyond the line of scrimmage.

[Ralph Damren]

That's not what I'm reading:

10-4-4 (NEW) The basic spot is the spot of the foul for:

 
   d. For a foul that occurs beyond the line of scrimmagr durimng a running play as defined in 10-3-2 when the run or related run ends beyond the line of scrimmage.

While I agree that the verbage could have been clearer, IMHO, 10-4-4d may have been needed to supplement 10-4-2e which reads : "For a foul by A that occurs BEHIND the LOS, when the run or related run ends BEYOND the LOS."  That would change from a spot foul to a previous spot foul BUT if both the EOR & foul were beyond the LOS than it would be a spot foul. To add clarity ,adding : unless the foul occured BEYOND the EOR.

The Editorial Committee may add clarity to this, we only have wait until the books hit the presses.

[SCHSref]

A1 (the QB) receives the snap.  He now has player possession of the ball, and if he meets other criteria, he could legally throw the ball away.

But instead, he hands the ball to A2, who now has player possession.  Legal grounding is off the table now for everyone.

A2 runs a couple of steps forward and now throws a backwards pass to A1.  A1 has player possession again.

A1 can’t find anyone open, so he throws the ball away.  He can’t legally do that because he wasn’t the only player to have possession.

Does that help?

Ok...so basically, if ball changes possession (hand off, pitch, etc...not counting a team COP), then no one can ground it, correct?

[Ralph Damren]

Ok...so basically, if ball changes possession (hand off, pitch, etc...not counting a team COP), then no one can ground it, correct?

CORRECT 

[CalhounLJ]

BUT if both the EOR & foul were beyond the LOS than it would be a spot foul.

This is the part that concerns me. So, by changing the basic spot for fouls on running plays to the spot of the foul instead of the end of the run, you have basically eliminated the end of the run as an enforcement spot. Therefore, if we have a flag BEYOND the end of the run we have to go there. Because all fouls are enforced from the basic spot. This could be troubling, because if the foul is in front of the end of the run we would be giving A yardage he didn’t fairly gain.


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[ted skoundrianos]

 I still don't under stand the new rule change. If A fouls behind the LOS is that a previuos spot enforcement. A 1st & 10 at 50 yard line A throw a pass that is completed or incompleted pass. There a hold at A 40 yard line. The penalty is enforce from the 50 yard line previous spot enforcement. Right. A 1st & 10 from the 50 yard line A called for holding at A 40 yard line the sack also at The 40 yard line. They have the option of decline the penalty so it would 2 & 20 from 40 yard line. Or accept the penalty so it would be 1 & 20 from 40 yard line. If A fouls behind  the LOS on a running play is that a previous spot or spot of the foul.