Author Topic: NFHS releases clarifications-states rule table in 10-4 is correct  (Read 3045 times)

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Offline HLinNC

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2023 NFHS Football Rules Book Clarification:
Rule 10-4 and TABLE 10-4 are correct as listed in the 2023 NFHS Football Rules Book.

In compiling the multitude of changes to Rule 10 necessitated by the discussion around the proposed 2023 NFHS football rules change that was approved unanimously, there remains two additional clarifications to be made for coaches, administrators and game officials for the upcoming 2023 high school football season.

To summarize, if on-field game situations involving a loss of possession create a conflict between the end of the run or related run and the succeeding spot, game officials should apply the standard related to the end of the run as intended by the cleanup in Rule 10-4-8. This does not apply to fouls as detailed in Rule 10-4-5a through 10-4- 5d which explicitly call for succeeding spot enforcement (the spot where the ball will next be put in play per Rule 2-41-10). Rule 2-41-9b will help clarify those situations in which conflict might exist.

https://www.nfhs.org/sports-resource-content/football-rules-interpretations-2023/

Rule 10-4 and TABLE 10-4 Clarification – (Play Situations):

PLAY 1: A first and 10 on A’s 40. The runner runs to B’s 40, where he fumbles the ball forward and out of bounds at B’s 30. During the run (before the fumble), A11 commits a holding foul at B’s 38. RULING: The holding penalty is enforced from the end of the run (B’s 40 - the fumble spot). A first and 10 at the 50.

PLAY 2: A first and 10 on A’s 40. The runner runs to B’s 40, where he fumbles the ball forward and out of bounds at B’s 30. During the run, B18 commits a face mask foul anywhere on the field. RULING: The penalty for illegal face mask is enforced from the end of the run (B’s 40 - fumble spot). A first and 10 on B’s 25.

PLAY 3: A first and 10 on A’s 40. The runner runs to B’s 40, where he fumbles the ball forward and B RECOVERS at B’s 30. During the run, B11 commits a face mask foul anywhere on the field. RULING: The penalty for illegal face mask is enforced from the end of the run (B’s 40 - fumble spot). A first and 10 on B’s 25.

2023 NFHS Football Case Book Clarification: (Underlining shows additions; strikethrough shows deletions.)

Page 75, 9.2.1 SITUATION J: On a successful try for point by kick, the interior linemen of K all reached across and grasped the teammate immediately to their inside after the snap. RULING: Interlocked blocking, 10-yard penalty from the previous spot spot of the foul since this spot is probably behind the basic spot. (10-4-2)

Offline Snapper

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Re: NFHS releases clarifications-states rule table in 10-4 is correct
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2023, 12:03:50 PM »
...as intended by...


I "intended" to pretend to respect the work of this year's editorial committee.


Anyway, thank-you, HLinNC, and also to Patrick  E. and Ralph and everyone else that has been posting info as they get it.


Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: NFHS releases clarifications-states rule table in 10-4 is correct
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2023, 02:54:19 PM »
Ok, so let's try this one. Assuming 10-4-5e is correct: "The basic spot is the succeeding spot for: e. A foul by B when the run or related run ends beyond the line of scrimmage."

Play: 1st and 10 at the A20. A1 runs around the left end, gains 10 yds to the A30. He is tackled by the facemask by B45.  During the run, time expires in the 2nd quarter. Where is the succeeding spot? and where do we mark the penalty from?

According to 2-41-10, the succeeding spot is, "where the ball would next be snapped or free kicked if a foul had not occurred." If a foul had not occurred on this play, the ball would next be free kicked from the K40.

So, do we mark off the penalty on the ensuing kickoff to start the 3rd quarter?

Because, according to this statement, 10-4 is correct.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2023, 02:56:51 PM by CalhounLJ »

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: NFHS releases clarifications-states rule table in 10-4 is correct
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2023, 03:06:43 PM »
Page 75, 9.2.1 SITUATION J: On a successful try for point by kick, the interior linemen of K all reached across and grasped the teammate immediately to their inside after the snap. RULING: Interlocked blocking, 10-yard penalty from the previous spot spot of the foul since this spot is probably behind the basic spot. (10-4-2)

I would love to talk about this one too. WTH? "10-yd penalty from the previous spot spot of the foul..." Which one?

"since this spot is probably behind the basic spot." What if it's not?

My stars......

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: NFHS releases clarifications-states rule table in 10-4 is correct
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2023, 03:10:26 PM »
To summarize, if on-field game situations involving a loss of possession create a conflict between the end of the run or related run and the succeeding spot, game officials should apply the standard related to the end of the run as intended by the cleanup in Rule 10-4-8. This does not apply to fouls as detailed in Rule 10-4-5a through 10-4- 5d which explicitly call for succeeding spot enforcement (the spot where the ball will next be put in play per Rule 2-41-10). Rule 2-41-9b will help clarify those situations in which conflict might exist.

WHY NOT JUST CHANGE THE RULES IN CONFLICT WITH SUCCEEDING SPOT TO "END OF RUN OR RELATED RUN?"

Offline VALJ

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Re: NFHS releases clarifications-states rule table in 10-4 is correct
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2023, 03:29:07 PM »
Page 75, 9.2.1 SITUATION J: On a successful try for point by kick, the interior linemen of K all reached across and grasped the teammate immediately to their inside after the snap. RULING: Interlocked blocking, 10-yard penalty from the previous spot spot of the foul since this spot is probably behind the basic spot. (10-4-2)

I would love to talk about this one too. WTH? "10-yd penalty from the previous spot spot of the foul..." Which one?

"since this spot is probably behind the basic spot." What if it's not?

My stars......
There’s a strike through missing in the OP:

Page 75, 9.2.1 SITUATION J: On a successful try for point by kick, the interior linemen of K all reached across and grasped the teammate immediately to their inside after the snap. RULING: Interlocked blocking, 10-yard penalty from the previous spot spot of the foul since this spot is probably behind the basic spot. (10-4-2)


Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: NFHS releases clarifications-states rule table in 10-4 is correct
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2023, 04:20:07 PM »
Thanks, that makes much more sense.

Offline dammitbobby

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Re: NFHS releases clarifications-states rule table in 10-4 is correct
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2023, 05:01:12 PM »
Disregard, ValJ pointed out what I was going to.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: NFHS releases clarifications-states rule table in 10-4 is correct
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2023, 05:34:46 PM »
There’s a strike through missing in the OP:

Page 75, 9.2.1 SITUATION J: On a successful try for point by kick, the interior linemen of K all reached across and grasped the teammate immediately to their inside after the snap. RULING: Interlocked blocking, 10-yard penalty from the previous spot spot of the foul since this spot is probably behind the basic spot. (10-4-2)
Weird, it’s gone again.


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Offline lukez

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Re: NFHS releases clarifications-states rule table in 10-4 is correct
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2023, 11:15:23 PM »
To summarize, if on-field game situations involving a loss of possession create a conflict between the end of the run or related run and the succeeding spot, game officials should apply the standard related to the end of the run as intended by the cleanup in Rule 10-4-8. This does not apply to fouls as detailed in Rule 10-4-5a through 10-4- 5d which explicitly call for succeeding spot enforcement (the spot where the ball will next be put in play per Rule 2-41-10). Rule 2-41-9b will help clarify those situations in which conflict might exist.

WHY NOT JUST CHANGE THE RULES IN CONFLICT WITH SUCCEEDING SPOT TO "END OF RUN OR RELATED RUN?"

Striking 10-4-5e,f,g would accomplish this due to 10-4-8.  It does seem a awkward that they say 10-4 is correct and then issue rulings that don't seem to be supported by what 10-4 actually says.  I suspect they had added in these succeeding spots either in an attempt to simplify the rules or in an attempt to remove loopholes that required the offended team to decline a penalty, but it's just moving around the loopholes.

Are there any situations during a running play where loss of [player] possession (per guidance from the interpretation) and end of the related run are different?  Handing the ball, I suppose.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: NFHS releases clarifications-states rule table in 10-4 is correct
« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2023, 05:53:47 AM »
Striking 10-4-5e,f,g would accomplish this due to 10-4-8.  It does seem a awkward that they say 10-4 is correct and then issue rulings that don't seem to be supported by what 10-4 actually says.  I suspect they had added in these succeeding spots either in an attempt to simplify the rules or in an attempt to remove loopholes that required the offended team to decline a penalty, but it's just moving around the loopholes.

Are there any situations during a running play where loss of [player] possession (per guidance from the interpretation) and end of the related run are different?  Handing the ball, I suppose.
Using succeeding spot instead of end of run in those situations is the problem. Simple fix by changing the language. Not sure why they don’t do that. I do know there is a critical lack of understanding concerning the definition of succeeding spot and why it doesn’t need to be used in certain situations.


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Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: NFHS releases clarifications-states rule table in 10-4 is correct
« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2023, 06:05:39 AM »
Ok, so let's try this one. Assuming 10-4-5e is correct: "The basic spot is the succeeding spot for: e. A foul by B when the run or related run ends beyond the line of scrimmage."

Play: 1st and 10 at the A20. A1 runs around the left end, gains 10 yds to the A30. He is tackled by the facemask by B45.  During the run, time expires in the 2nd quarter. Where is the succeeding spot? and where do we mark the penalty from?

According to 2-41-10, the succeeding spot is, "where the ball would next be snapped or free kicked if a foul had not occurred." If a foul had not occurred on this play, the ball would next be free kicked from the K40.

So, do we mark off the penalty on the ensuing kickoff to start the 3rd quarter?

Because, according to this statement, 10-4 is correct.

A perfect example is this situation. I guess this post has leprosy, because nobody will touch it, but this case play illustrates the problem with using succeeding spot instead of end of run. A simple change in the language, and enforcement makes perfect sense. Enforce the face mask from the end of the run,  run an untimed down, and go to halftime. Easy peasey...
But for some reason, they stubbornly cling to succeeding spot, choosing to issue a "clarification" that only muddies the waters more..

Offline Snapper

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Re: NFHS releases clarifications-states rule table in 10-4 is correct
« Reply #12 on: July 18, 2023, 07:46:01 AM »
A perfect example is this situation. I guess this post has leprosy, because nobody will touch it, ...

It's not the post that's the issue.  I think it's just the stunning level of NFHS's hubris.

It's not just this board that has been pointing out the problems with their editorial changes.  It was also interpreters and rules committee members from around the country.

It reminds me of when the penultimate episode of Game of Thrones aired and everyone complained that it was disappointing and that it was so dark as to be unwatchable.  But the creators basically said "No, no, it's all of your TV's, not us, because we're geniuses.  And if you think that episode was bad, here hold my beer while we get the final episode ready."

So yeah, there are still issues with what they've published.  But at this point, I'm not sure that pointing them out does much good.  (I haven't even posted about a mistake on one of their powerpoint rules change slides yet, because, well, what's the point?  They're geniuses.)

With this "clarification", they seem to be saying "You know what we meant."  Which isn't a great way, IMHO, to try to teach a new rule and way of doing things to thousands of officials and coaches.

So anyway, I know that they meant.  The full rules committee wanted to go to the college way of enforcing fouls behind the line.  I mostly work college rules.  But I'll be out there on high school fields some Thursdays.  And this change isn't going to bother me.  I know what they meant.  But I do still worry about how much confusion this is going to cause in association meetings, crew meetings, etc.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: NFHS releases clarifications-states rule table in 10-4 is correct
« Reply #13 on: July 18, 2023, 09:46:36 AM »
It's not the post that's the issue.  I think it's just the stunning level of NFHS's hubris.

It's not just this board that has been pointing out the problems with their editorial changes.  It was also interpreters and rules committee members from around the country.

It reminds me of when the penultimate episode of Game of Thrones aired and everyone complained that it was disappointing and that it was so dark as to be unwatchable.  But the creators basically said "No, no, it's all of your TV's, not us, because we're geniuses.  And if you think that episode was bad, here hold my beer while we get the final episode ready."

So yeah, there are still issues with what they've published.  But at this point, I'm not sure that pointing them out does much good.  (I haven't even posted about a mistake on one of their powerpoint rules change slides yet, because, well, what's the point?  They're geniuses.)

With this "clarification", they seem to be saying "You know what we meant."  Which isn't a great way, IMHO, to try to teach a new rule and way of doing things to thousands of officials and coaches.

So anyway, I know that they meant.  The full rules committee wanted to go to the college way of enforcing fouls behind the line.  I mostly work college rules.  But I'll be out there on high school fields some Thursdays.  And this change isn't going to bother me.  I know what they meant.  But I do still worry about how much confusion this is going to cause in association meetings, crew meetings, etc.

perfect take. I agree completely.

Offline HLinNC

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Re: NFHS releases clarifications-states rule table in 10-4 is correct
« Reply #14 on: July 18, 2023, 05:03:57 PM »
Quote
I know what they meant.  But I do still worry about how much confusion this is going to cause in association meetings, crew meetings, etc.

Our state clinic is next week.  I fear they won't be able to explain it either.

Offline ncwingman

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Re: NFHS releases clarifications-states rule table in 10-4 is correct
« Reply #15 on: July 19, 2023, 07:19:39 AM »
Our state clinic is next week.  I fear they won't be able to explain it either.

I don't fear Cecil not explaining it, for it is a certainty. Which one are you going to? I'll bring the popcorn.  :sTiR:

What I fear is knowing there are quite a few fellow officials who either a) never pick up a rule book (they've been doing this for 30 years, they know the rules!) or b) interpret the rules in their own way regardless of official explanations. There will be quite a few clusterfudges of plays this year that should be avoidable, because you can't show Group A the new rule because it's nonsense and you can't convince Group B of the new rule because the official interpretation is "You know what I mean?" and they think they do, but they're wrong.

Cecil will potentially make things worse before they get better.

Offline HLinNC

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Re: NFHS releases clarifications-states rule table in 10-4 is correct
« Reply #16 on: July 19, 2023, 07:46:03 AM »
Quote
Which one are you going to? I'll bring the popcorn.  :sTiR:

Tuesday in Avl.

You're 100% correct.  I'm thinking of popping a couple of Benedryl before I go.  Mind over matter-if I don't mind, it won't matter. ;D

 I took the advice from one of the threads yesterday.  I've downloaded the NCAA pdf and printed the enforcement chapter 10, which is 4 pages, I think.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: NFHS releases clarifications-states rule table in 10-4 is correct
« Reply #17 on: July 19, 2023, 07:53:03 AM »
Tuesday in Avl.

You're 100% correct.  I'm thinking of popping a couple of Benedryl before I go.  Mind over matter-if I don't mind, it won't matter. ;D

 I took the advice from one of the threads yesterday.  I've downloaded the NCAA pdf and printed the enforcement chapter 10, which is 4 pages, I think.
This is the wave of the future.


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Offline ncwingman

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Re: NFHS releases clarifications-states rule table in 10-4 is correct
« Reply #18 on: July 19, 2023, 08:22:17 AM »
Just to put my thoughts in words and see if people agree with my interpretation of "you know what I mean?", this is what I think should be the case. If I'm wrong, please let me know so I'm not part of that Group B I mentioned earlier.

Scenario A: If there is a foul and NO COP on the play, the new rule states that:

a) If the run ends behind the LOS, the penalty is enforced from the previous spot.
b) If the foul by A occurred behind the LOS, the penalty is enforced from the previous spot. (Except IFP, IK and IB and any foul that occurs in A's end zone that would be a safety)
c) Any other scenario follows the ABO principle that used to be in the rule book.

Scenario B: If there is a foul PRIOR to a COP on the play:

a) The philosophy of clean hands still applies.
b) The "succeeding spot" in the rule book really means "end of the *related run*", i.e. the bean bag spot.
c) If the foul by A or bean bag spot are behind the LOS, enforce from the previous spot as in Scenario A, otherwise it's ABO. (Editors note - if the "bean bag spot" was behind the LOS, there shouldn't be a bean bag because it was a loose ball play where the basic spot was the previous spot anyway, so that aspect really hasn't changed)

Scenario C: If there is a foul AFTER a COP on the play (including PSK):

a) Enforce ABO as previous. Nothing has fundamentally changed here as the LOS is now irrelevant.

Any special enforcement rules, such as on free kicks or scoring plays, are also unchanged by the new rule.

What did I miss?

Offline HLinNC

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Re: NFHS releases clarifications-states rule table in 10-4 is correct
« Reply #19 on: July 19, 2023, 09:45:47 AM »

At first glance I think you are right.  I'm currently working on video clips for a wing/BJ presentation due in two weeks so I'm not in the mood, presently, to check you without bringing on a potential migraine.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: NFHS releases clarifications-states rule table in 10-4 is correct
« Reply #20 on: July 19, 2023, 02:34:16 PM »
Just to put my thoughts in words and see if people agree with my interpretation of "you know what I mean?", this is what I think should be the case. If I'm wrong, please let me know so I'm not part of that Group B I mentioned earlier.

Scenario A: If there is a foul and NO COP on the play, the new rule states that:

a) If the run ends behind the LOS, the penalty is enforced from the previous spot.
b) If the foul by A occurred behind the LOS, the penalty is enforced from the previous spot. (Except IFP, IK and IB and any foul that occurs in A's end zone that would be a safety)
c) Any other scenario follows the ABO principle that used to be in the rule book.

Scenario B: If there is a foul PRIOR to a COP on the play:

a) The philosophy of clean hands still applies.
b) The "succeeding spot" in the rule book really means "end of the *related run*", i.e. the bean bag spot.
c) If the foul by A or bean bag spot are behind the LOS, enforce from the previous spot as in Scenario A, otherwise it's ABO. (Editors note - if the "bean bag spot" was behind the LOS, there shouldn't be a bean bag because it was a loose ball play where the basic spot was the previous spot anyway, so that aspect really hasn't changed)

Scenario C: If there is a foul AFTER a COP on the play (including PSK):

a) Enforce ABO as previous. Nothing has fundamentally changed here as the LOS is now irrelevant.

Any special enforcement rules, such as on free kicks or scoring plays, are also unchanged by the new rule.




Looks solid to me, NCwingman, and plan to use your format with our guys. The complexity of Rule 10 has been echoed many times over
the years and two of my favorites came from coaches........

SCENE: This Spring's coaches clinic, when trying to explain our rule change. A crusty ole' coach muttered....

"It's your job to understand this stuff ::) , please try to git 'er right.  :bOW . "


SCENE: Last century, coaches clinic after I had blown an enforcement spot at a critical spot in a regional championship game; I tried to explain my error to the jilted coach. He responded....

"I'm never shy to have a good arguement  :-\ , BUT I wouldn't have a clue what I would have been arguing about  :o !"

^flagWE ARE TRUSTED TO GET T THIS RIGHT...LET'S DO OUR BEST TO EARN THEIR TRUST  ^flag

Offline lukez

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Re: NFHS releases clarifications-states rule table in 10-4 is correct
« Reply #21 on: July 19, 2023, 11:36:08 PM »
Just to put my thoughts in words and see if people agree with my interpretation of "you know what I mean?", this is what I think should be the case. If I'm wrong, please let me know so I'm not part of that Group B I mentioned earlier.

Scenario A: If there is a foul and NO COP on the play, the new rule states that:

a) If the run ends behind the LOS, the penalty is enforced from the previous spot.
b) If the foul by A occurred behind the LOS, the penalty is enforced from the previous spot. (Except IFP, IK and IB and any foul that occurs in A's end zone that would be a safety)
c) Any other scenario follows the ABO principle that used to be in the rule book.

Scenario B: If there is a foul PRIOR to a COP on the play:

a) The philosophy of clean hands still applies.
b) The "succeeding spot" in the rule book really means "end of the *related run*", i.e. the bean bag spot.
c) If the foul by A or bean bag spot are behind the LOS, enforce from the previous spot as in Scenario A, otherwise it's ABO. (Editors note - if the "bean bag spot" was behind the LOS, there shouldn't be a bean bag because it was a loose ball play where the basic spot was the previous spot anyway, so that aspect really hasn't changed)

Scenario C: If there is a foul AFTER a COP on the play (including PSK):

a) Enforce ABO as previous. Nothing has fundamentally changed here as the LOS is now irrelevant.

Any special enforcement rules, such as on free kicks or scoring plays, are also unchanged by the new rule.

What did I miss?

This sounds nice, but I wonder, is it really this simple?  The NFHS "interpretation" says to only change succeeding spot to end-of-related-run when there is a "loss of possession" conflict (which I assume to mean loss of player possession based on the plays provided there).  I don't know that we can entirely disregard the succeeding spot unless there is an explicit NFHS or state interpretation specifying to do that; it seems like they're suggesting that they want to stick with it.  Of course they haven't touched the conflict of when the succeeding spot is the second half kickoff but the accepted penalty requires extending the 2nd quarter.

Offline ncwingman

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Re: NFHS releases clarifications-states rule table in 10-4 is correct
« Reply #22 on: July 20, 2023, 07:54:23 AM »
This sounds nice, but I wonder, is it really this simple?  The NFHS "interpretation" says to only change succeeding spot to end-of-related-run when there is a "loss of possession" conflict (which I assume to mean loss of player possession based on the plays provided there).  I don't know that we can entirely disregard the succeeding spot unless there is an explicit NFHS or state interpretation specifying to do that; it seems like they're suggesting that they want to stick with it.  Of course they haven't touched the conflict of when the succeeding spot is the second half kickoff but the accepted penalty requires extending the 2nd quarter.

My theory of events, which Ralph can probably neither confirm nor deny:

1) Rules meeting happens where members have 45 minutes to debate rule changes. They decide that offensive holding should be a 10 yard foul, not potentially a 14 yard foul depending on spot. Since they don't have time to debate the nuance of the rule itself, they pass the motion in general terms only.

2) The voted change is given to the rules/editorial(?) committee (not sure of the correct name here). Said committee dun goofs by making a major philosophical change to the rule book (eliminating the ABO principle) that goes WAY above and beyond the intent of the voted and passed rule change.

3) Leadership realizes the rule books, that are printed and shipped apparently sight unseen because of how the process above unfolds, contain a terrible implementation of the rule change, but can't come out and directly say that because that would undermine trust in the process (or whatever). They issue a statement saying that the rule books are correct, except for the parts that aren't, but they can't say what isn't right because it's all correct, thus firmly planting their foot in the pile of dog poo they saw coming.

My advice, and I'm just some random dude on the internet who is allowed to be ignored and out voted, is not to do something that is philosophically stupid because you're trying to follow the letter of a very poorly written rule change. Yes, they used "succeeding spot" incorrectly in several places since that phrase has a specific meaning defined in 2-41-10, but don't let the unintended consequences ruin the game. The intent of the rule change was to prevent a 10 yard penalty from becoming a 15 yard penalty because of the spot of the foul behind the LOS. If there is a change of possession involved, or a score, or bridging to the next kickoff, ask yourself what you did last year and keep doing that -- doing anything else because you're hyper focused on the incorrect usage of "succeeding spot" is an unintended consequence.

The clarification press release has already poked a hole in the infallibility of the phrase "succeeding spot". Play 3 (B commits a foul THEN recovers the fumble) is enforced has it had been previously (i.e., from the end of the related run and A keeps the ball, not the actual succeeding spot where B gets the ball). Be smart, not literal.

However, I'm also failing to come up with a scenario where the succeeding spot is the 2nd half kickoff, but the penalty requires an untimed down. If the second quarter must be extended, then that untimed down is the succeeding spot, not the 2nd half kickoff. If there is a score that allows penalty enforcement on the succeeding kickoff, then there is no period extension (3-4-4-b(4)).

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: NFHS releases clarifications-states rule table in 10-4 is correct
« Reply #23 on: July 20, 2023, 09:04:12 AM »
My theory of events, which Ralph can probably neither confirm nor deny:

1) Rules meeting happens where members have 45 minutes to debate rule changes. They decide that offensive holding should be a 10 yard foul, not potentially a 14 yard foul depending on spot. Since they don't have time to debate the nuance of the rule itself, they pass the motion in general terms only.

2) The voted change is given to the rules/editorial(?) committee (not sure of the correct name here). Said committee dun goofs by making a major philosophical change to the rule book (eliminating the ABO principle) that goes WAY above and beyond the intent of the voted and passed rule change.

3) Leadership realizes the rule books, that are printed and shipped apparently sight unseen because of how the process above unfolds, contain a terrible implementation of the rule change, but can't come out and directly say that because that would undermine trust in the process (or whatever). They issue a statement saying that the rule books are correct, except for the parts that aren't, but they can't say what isn't right because it's all correct, thus firmly planting their foot in the pile of dog poo they saw coming.

My advice, and I'm just some random dude on the internet who is allowed to be ignored and out voted, is not to do something that is philosophically stupid because you're trying to follow the letter of a very poorly written rule change. Yes, they used "succeeding spot" incorrectly in several places since that phrase has a specific meaning defined in 2-41-10, but don't let the unintended consequences ruin the game. The intent of the rule change was to prevent a 10 yard penalty from becoming a 15 yard penalty because of the spot of the foul behind the LOS. If there is a change of possession involved, or a score, or bridging to the next kickoff, ask yourself what you did last year and keep doing that -- doing anything else because you're hyper focused on the incorrect usage of "succeeding spot" is an unintended consequence.

The clarification press release has already poked a hole in the infallibility of the phrase "succeeding spot". Play 3 (B commits a foul THEN recovers the fumble) is enforced has it had been previously (i.e., from the end of the related run and A keeps the ball, not the actual succeeding spot where B gets the ball). Be smart, not literal.

However, I'm also failing to come up with a scenario where the succeeding spot is the 2nd half kickoff, but the penalty requires an untimed down. If the second quarter must be extended, then that untimed down is the succeeding spot, not the 2nd half kickoff. If there is a score that allows penalty enforcement on the succeeding kickoff, then there is no period extension (3-4-4-b(4)).

I think we all agree in principle with everything you posted, certainly the part about being smart, not literal. But in reality, that's the issue. The rules committee has created a situation in which, to do what we all know is right and fair, we have to disobey and/or ignore the rule as written. There is absolutely no reason to have to do that. When it's all said and done, the rulebook is supposed to rule the roost, and we are supposed to be able to use it as a tool to correctly and fairly administer penalty enforcement.

As to this portion of your post: "However, I'm also failing to come up with a scenario where the succeeding spot is the 2nd half kickoff, but the penalty requires an untimed down. If the second quarter must be extended, then that untimed down is the succeeding spot, not the 2nd half kickoff. If there is a score that allows penalty enforcement on the succeeding kickoff, then there is no period extension (3-4-4-b(4))."

I think we all also agree using "succeeding spot" instead of "end or run or related run" has created a conflict between at least two rules, making enforcement impossible as written. Just because a quarter must be extended because of a penalty does not mean that the definition of succeeding spot should be changed, ignored, or set aside. The proper thing to do is to change the basic spot of enforcement to "end of run or related run," because that would solve everything. If the penalty is accepted, we enforce from the spot where the run ended, run an untimed down, and go to halftime.

Again, it's not a question of understanding the right and smart thing to do, it's frustration that the rules committee has put us in this position in the first place. The Rulebook should be accurate and the committee should take all steps necessary to make sure it is.
But for some reason, the rules committee has decided to doggedly hang on to an incorrect usage of succeeding spot.

Offline Snapper

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Re: NFHS releases clarifications-states rule table in 10-4 is correct
« Reply #24 on: July 20, 2023, 09:34:31 AM »
A lot of you have made some really good points.  And yes, what the NFHS editors have done is frustrating.  I've certainly bitched quite a bit about it myself.  But as the saying goes, wish in one hand for the NFHS editors to clearly write good rules, and do something else in your other hand, and see which fills up first.

So I think it's time that we do what we always do, overcome a badly written rule, and do what's best for the game and the kids. 

We all know that they screwed up by loosely using "Succeeding Spot".  And I think most agree that totally dumping "All-but-one" might not have been the best approach.  But we do know what they meant.  And I contend that they've now given us enough guidance in their "Football Rules Interpretations - 2023" document for us to proceed, even if it wasn't very clearly written.

State Association Interpretations override Fed interpretations.  But absent any from a State Association, then we use what the Fed has given us.

They first say:
"To summarize, if on-field game situations involving a loss of possession create a conflict between the end of the run or related run and the succeeding spot, game officials should apply the standard related to the end of the run as intended by the cleanup in Rule 10-4-8. This does not apply to fouls as detailed in Rule 10-4-5a through 10-4- 5d which explicitly call for succeeding spot enforcement (the spot where the ball will next be put in play per Rule 2-41-10). Rule 2-41-9b will help clarify those situations in which conflict might exist."

That's a bunch of gobbledygook, but they give do give us guidance to proceed "as intended".


They then give us 3 specific examples of when to proceed "as intended" and use end of the related run, rather than succeeding spot:

Rule 10-4 and TABLE 10-4 Clarification – (Play Situations):

PLAY 1: A first and 10 on A’s 40. The runner runs to B’s 40, where he fumbles the ball forward and out of bounds at B’s 30. During the run (before the fumble), A11 commits a holding foul at B’s 38. RULING: The holding penalty is enforced from the end of the run (B’s 40 - the fumble spot). A first and 10 at the 50.

PLAY 2: A first and 10 on A’s 40. The runner runs to B’s 40, where he fumbles the ball forward and out of bounds at B’s 30. During the run, B18 commits a face mask foul anywhere on the field. RULING: The penalty for illegal face mask is enforced from the end of the run (B’s 40 - fumble spot). A first and 10 on B’s 25.

PLAY 3: A first and 10 on A’s 40. The runner runs to B’s 40, where he fumbles the ball forward and B RECOVERS at B’s 30. During the run, B11 commits a face mask foul anywhere on the field. RULING: The penalty for illegal face mask is enforced from the end of the run (B’s 40 - fumble spot). A first and 10 on B’s 25.



So, they've basically told us what they meant, and given us permission to extrapolate for other play situations that come up.

Very poor rules writing, yes.  And a poor attempt to clean it up.  It's clearly going to lead to a lot of confusion. 

But by my reckoning, we are now covered to "do the right thing" and do what they intended, rather than blindly relying on a strict reading of what they've written.  It's not great, but it's what we've got.