Illegal Numbering (numbering exception) 2 test questions

[Fatso]

I get the gist of the rule as it's written - but when is the players' "initial position" established,  Is it when the center puts his hand on the ball?  If so, does that mean multiple shifts can take place prior to the center touching the ball and none of it really matters until snapper touches ball?

The below test question doesn't say when center touches the ball, but there are 5 players # 50-79.

1) Team A is lined up in scrimmage kick formation on 4th down with linemen numbered from left to right as follows: 82, 81, 77, 67, snapper 52, 63, 75. After a clear pause, 82 shifts off the line and sets in the backfield while back 41 moves up and sets on the right side of the formation leaving 81 as an end on the left. After another clear pause, the ball is snapped and a legal forward pass is thrown to 81 complete in B’s end zone. Ruling:

a.Touchdown.
b. Illegal touching by A, 5 yard penalty from previous spot and loss of down.
c. Illegal formation by A, 5 yard penalty from previous spot.
d. Illegal numbering by A, 5 yard penalty from the previous spot.
e. None of the above



This next question does state when the snapper touches the ball.  I believe 81 is covered up by 82 when snapper touches the ball so is that the main factor here?  (There's one player #50-79 (77) and 6 players not #50-79 initially on the line.  How do you determine which 5 are the "initial" exception guys and which ones would become eligible if they are no longer covered up etc? 

2) Team A is lined up in scrimmage kick formation on 4th down with linemen numbered from left to right as follows: 82, 81, 77, 37, snapper 12, 43, 25. There are six minutes left in the period. After the snapper touches the ball, and after a clear pause, 82 shifts off the line and sets in the backfield while back 41 moves up and sets on the right side of the formation leaving 81 as an end on the left. After another clear pause, the ball is snapped and a legal forward pass is thrown to 81 complete in B’s end zone. Ruling:

a. Touchdown.
b. Illegal touching by A, 5 yard penalty from previous spot and loss of down.
c. Illegal formation by A, 5 yard penalty from previous spot.
d. Illegal numbering by A, 5 yard penalty from the previous spot.
e. B and C.
f. None of the above

[HLinNC]

Reddings Guide pg 11

"The exempted players are determined when the snapper touches the ball."  Cites Rule 7-2-5b Exc 2 and case book plays 7.2.5 E & F.

[bossman72]

Play 1 has 5 players 50-79, so all of those shifts are legal and the players on the end of the line at the snap are eligible.  Snapper touching the ball is irrelevant.

Play 2 is illegal touching (b).  Team A is using the numbering exception, so once the snapper touches the ball, all interior linemen are locked in as ineligible for the rest of the down, no matter where they end up.  The formation itself is legal.

A81 is ineligible even though he ends up on the end of the line.
A25 is ineligble since he is covered up at the snap.
A82 is eligible since he was eligible before and after his shift.

[Fatso]

Play 1 has 5 players 50-79, so all of those shifts are legal and the players on the end of the line at the snap are eligible.  Snapper touching the ball is irrelevant.

Play 2 is illegal touching (b).  Team A is using the numbering exception, so once the snapper touches the ball, all interior linemen are locked in as ineligible for the rest of the down, no matter where they end up.  The formation itself is legal.

A81 is ineligible even though he ends up on the end of the line.
A25 is ineligble since he is covered up at the snap.
A82 is eligible since he was eligible before and after his shift.

Got it, thank you both for replies!. 

[SCHSref]

According to the rulebook in 7-2-5b exception 2...the word initial is critical. Where was his initial placement? If he is not on the end, as Bossman stated, he ain't eligible.

As a Back Judge, when there is a kick try, I always yell out the 2 numbers I have on the end of the line so if a pass is thrown and it is to one of those players, it's in my brain if he is eligible or not.

[NVFOA_Ump]

According to the rulebook in 7-2-5b exception 2...the word initial is critical. Where was his initial placement? If he is not on the end, as Bossman stated, he ain't eligible.

As a Back Judge, when there is a kick try, I always yell out the 2 numbers I have on the end of the line so if a pass is thrown and it is to one of those players, it's in my brain if he is eligible or not.

Just for clarification the "initial placement" is determined when the snapper puts his hand(s) on the ball.