Extending the period, and giving B/R the ball.

[ncwingman]

After the debacle a couple of years ago when Central Michigan was given an erroneous free play at the end of the game, I've been thinking about situations where A/K puts the ball in play, time expires during the down, and some penalty situation occurs where the period is extended by an untimed down, but B/R is the team that would put the ball in play during the untimed down.

Previously, the only situation I could think of is if there is a legal change of possession on the play and then A/K fouls during the post possession change running play.

However, with the new kicking penalty enforcement rules, I think there's a new option. Any foul by K during a free/scrimmage kick down can be "tacked on", so even an illegal formation foul by K on a punt as time expires could allow B to run an untimed down (previously this would be previous spot enforcement, and K replays the down).

Am I correct in this? Are there other situations where this might happen?

[sir55]

I don't know the answer to your question, but has there been any official interpretations of the kick tack on rules by NFHS?

[bossman72]

After the debacle a couple of years ago when Central Michigan was given an erroneous free play at the end of the game, I've been thinking about situations where A/K puts the ball in play, time expires during the down, and some penalty situation occurs where the period is extended by an untimed down, but B/R is the team that would put the ball in play during the untimed down.

Previously, the only situation I could think of is if there is a legal change of possession on the play and then A/K fouls during the post possession change running play.

However, with the new kicking penalty enforcement rules, I think there's a new option. Any foul by K during a free/scrimmage kick down can be "tacked on", so even an illegal formation foul by K on a punt as time expires could allow B to run an untimed down (previously this would be previous spot enforcement, and K replays the down).

Am I correct in this? Are there other situations where this might happen?

FWIW, in NCAA, this would extend the period.  I assume the same would be true for NFHS.

[jgf6]

The new rule applies to fouls During a free/scrimmage kick, not any foul during a free/scrimmage kick Down. Illegal Formation is not a foul during the kick, therefore, I think it cannot be tacked on.

[bossman72]

The new rule applies to fouls During a free/scrimmage kick, not any foul during a free/scrimmage kick Down. Illegal Formation is not a foul during the kick, therefore, I think it cannot be tacked on.

I don't think that necessarily means while the ball is in the air.  Any live ball action prior to the loose ball is part of the loose ball (kick) play.

[ncwingman]

I don't think that necessarily means while the ball is in the air.  Any live ball action prior to the loose ball is part of the loose ball (kick) play.

I agree with this, although I'm going have to reread the new rule a hundred times when I get home today now.

The goal was to reduce rekicks while still enforcing K penalties, so a foul by K before the ball is in the air should be part of the tack on option to reduce rekicks. Also, if "while the ball was in the air" was a requirement of the option, I feel that would be in bold, flashing letters encircled with seizure inducing lights -- or at least mentioned once or twice in the press release -- mostly because there are no other rules that have a "while the ball is in the air" restriction either.

[jgf6]

2-24 Art.1: A kick is the intentional striking of the ball with the knee, lower leg or foot. Until that happens you don't have a kick. Can't assume a kick just because they are in a scrimmage kick formation because it may not be kicked. The snap is indeed a loose ball while it's in the air but it's not part of a kick play yet, it's a backward pass. With the new rule, it states the foul that occurs during the kick.

[bossman72]

2-24 Art.1: A kick is the intentional striking of the ball with the knee, lower leg or foot. Until that happens you don't have a kick. Can't assume a kick just because they are in a scrimmage kick formation because it may not be kicked. The snap is indeed a loose ball while it's in the air but it's not part of a kick play yet, it's a backward pass. With the new rule, it states the foul that occurs during the kick.

So if R holds 5 yards downfield before the ball is punted, you don't consider this PSK because it wasn't when the ball is in the air?

[jgf6]

No, not saying that at all and there is a rule that specifically covers that. 16-2h2: Post scrimmage kick - a foul by R when the foul occurs 2; During a scrimmage kick play in which the ball crosses the expanded neutral zone. The new rule states a foul by K during the kick.
I agree with you all in theory and I'm not trying to argue with you all. In my opinion, the rule does not back up what you are saying unless there is more to it. Just trying to get it straight.

[jgf6]

Forget my last post. My brain kicked in, PSK is a foul by R. Sorry

[Stinterp]

The new rule states fouls during a kicking Down, does not state during the kick. So an illegal formation foul on Team K will qualify.

[jgf6]

The verbiage from the National Federation's rationale for the new rule clearly states "during the Kick."

[jgf6]

Ok, Ok I stand corrected.  I purchased from Referee Magazine "Prep Football 2018". We know they never make a mistake.  In it, they have the exact play posted and the ruling you all have been giving me. It also states that during a free/scrimmage kick DOWN. I still maintain the verbiage at the Nation Federation did not include down, thus the confusion for me. Thanks to all of you who helped. I agree with all of you that this makes more sense in reducing the number of re-kicks. All I wanted all along was the correct interpretation so I could understand the new rule. Thanks.

[Stinterp]

The 2018 NFHS rulebook clearly states during a kick DOWN.

[Curious]

Reddings speaks to this issue on page 148:  "The option of succeeding spot enforcement applies regardless of when the foul by K occurs during the down"..."It does not matter whether the foul (holding in Ex.11-39) takes place before the kick or after the kick."

So even fouls by K that occur at the snap may be tacked on...and, since acceptance of live ball fouls extend the period, we should have one more play

[VA Official]

Straight from the new 2018 book, it does say during the down not during the kick.

10-4-2 EXCEPTION: The basic spot may, at the option of the offended team, be the succeeding spot for fouls by K during a free or scrimmage kick down (other than kick catch interference) when K will not be next to put the ball in play.