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Football Officiating => NCAA Discussion => Topic started by: BlindZebra on June 12, 2015, 09:36:53 AM
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Since we are in the lull of the season where there is no spring ball anymore and we are in waiting of the fall season, figured we could post some play situations on here. Feel free to submit situations off old tests, what you see on film that you are in question of or just the ones you create in your head while studying the rule book. To kick things off, let's start with a short one:
A 2/10 @ A5. QB A10 is in the end zone when he throws a forward pass intended for A3. A50 tries to catch the pass but muffs it into the air. A3 catches the ball and runs to the A13 where he is tackled. A50 was in the end zone when he touched the ball. Ruling?
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Assuming that you are referring to A50 as a lineman or ineligible receiver (at least by number), I'd have an illegal touching in the EZ, enforce as a safety.
Otherwise, unless it is on Sundays and he reports to the R as eligible, this must be one brick-dumb lineman to be turned facing his QB trying to catch a pass.
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Since you say the pass was intended for A3 and he later catches it, I'm going to assume that A3 was in the area of the pass and this is not intentional grounding. It is illegal touching, but it's not a safety. Illegal Touching's penalty statement specifically lists the previous spot as the enforcement spot. 2nd and 12.5 @ A2.5.
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Here's a somewhat convoluted play we had in a rules session where I'm still not totally convinced on:
A 4/5 @ B10. A's FG attempt is blocked at the B9. The ball is deflected to the B12, where, in order to prevent A from scooping the ball off the ground, a B player kicks the ball towards his end zone.
A) The ball is bouncing in the end zone when B24 picks it up and returns it to the B25.
B) The ball strikes the pylon.
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A 2/10 @ A5. QB A10 is in the end zone when he throws a forward pass intended for A3. A50 tries to catch the pass but muffs it into the air. A3 catches the ball and runs to the A13 where he is tackled. A50 was in the end zone when he touched the ball. Ruling?
A 2/12.5 @ A2.5. 7-3-11 penalty enforcement says to enforce at the previous spot
Here's a somewhat convoluted play we had in a rules session where I'm still not totally convinced on:
A 4/5 @ B10. A's FG attempt is blocked at the B9. The ball is deflected to the B12, where, in order to prevent A from scooping the ball off the ground, a B player kicks the ball towards his end zone.
A) The ball is bouncing in the end zone when B24 picks it up and returns it to the B25.
B) The ball strikes the pylon.
A) B 1/10 @ B6. Continuity of downs was broken since the ball crossed the neutral zone (5-1-4-b). Illegal kicking a loose ball is 10 yards from the basic spot which is the spot of the foul (9-4-4 & 10-2-2-d-1-c).
B) Safety. New impetus was given to the ball when B kicked it (8-7-2-b-1) and was dead behind their goal line. A will elect to decline the penalty and B will kick off from the B20
What is the answer?
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A 2/12.5 @ A2.5. 7-3-11 penalty enforcement says to enforce at the previous spot
A) B 1/10 @ B6. Continuity of downs was broken since the ball crossed the neutral zone (5-1-4-b). Illegal kicking a loose ball is 10 yards from the basic spot which is the spot of the foul (9-4-4 & 10-2-2-d-1-c).
B) Safety. New impetus was given to the ball when B kicked it (8-7-2-b-1) and was dead behind their goal line. A will elect to decline the penalty and B will kick off from the B20
What is the answer?
We decided it's a safety in both cases. In case A, the ball becomes dead as soon as it touches the endzone untouched by B beyond the neutral zone.
My point of contention was that these plays both undoubtedly satisfy the conditions in 8-5-1-a to be declared a safety. But they also satisfy the conditions in 8-4-2-b-1, which state that as an unsuccessful field goal attempt untouched by B beyond the neutral zone this ball must belong to team B to be snapped at the 20-yard line.
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DARN! Missed that one. It is dead when it goes into the end zone cause the status is still a kick. If you look at 6-3-1, that is why 8-4-2-b-1 doesn't apply. The ball was blocked one yard beyond the neutral zone which is said to have happened inside the zone. Good learning play!
A 4/4 @ B-40. Team A is in scrimmage kick (punt) formation and the linemen are lined up in thisorder (L-R): A22, A16, A60, A61, A50, A70, A81 (A61 is the snapper and his hands are on the ball). Prior to the snap, A22 backs up into the backfield and sets uncovering interior lineman A16, and A73 moves forward between A70 and A81. The ball is snapped to the punter who completes a pass to A81 at the B-30 where he is tackled. A16 contacted a defender and drove him downfield to the B-37. RULING including clock.
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A 4/4 @ B-40. Team A is in scrimmage kick (punt) formation and the linemen are lined up in thisorder (L-R): A22, A16, A60, A61, A50, A70, A81 (A61 is the snapper and his hands are on the ball). Prior to the snap, A22 backs up into the backfield and sets uncovering interior lineman A16, and A73 moves forward between A70 and A81. The ball is snapped to the punter who completes a pass to A81 at the B-30 where he is tackled. A16 contacted a defender and drove him downfield to the B-37. RULING including clock.
Illegal formation, A16 became a numbering exception when A61 touched the ball and was at the end of the line at the snap. 4/9@B-45. A16 is an ineligible player by position so no foul for OPI. Result of the play is a first down for team A. The clock was stopped to administer a penalty, so it starts on the ready.
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DARN! Missed that one. It is dead when it goes into the end zone cause the status is still a kick. If you look at 6-3-1, that is why 8-4-2-b-1 doesn't apply. The ball was blocked one yard beyond the neutral zone which is said to have happened inside the zone. Good learning play!
A 4/4 @ B-40. Team A is in scrimmage kick (punt) formation and the linemen are lined up in thisorder (L-R): A22, A16, A60, A61, A50, A70, A81 (A61 is the snapper and his hands are on the ball). Prior to the snap, A22 backs up into the backfield and sets uncovering interior lineman A16, and A73 moves forward between A70 and A81. The ball is snapped to the punter who completes a pass to A81 at the B-30 where he is tackled. A16 contacted a defender and drove him downfield to the B-37. RULING including clock.
Right, the ball was blocked one yard beyond the neutral zone but is said to have happened inside the zone. So, the following provision of 8-4-2-b-1 should apply:
"If the ball is untouched by Team B beyond the neutral zone (this ball was never touched beyond the neutral zone as we've decided) and is declared dead beyond the neutral zone, it belongs to team B. ....Team B will next snap the ball at its 20-yard line"
We can muddy the scenario even further. Let's try this:
A 4/5 @ B10. A's FG attempt is blocked at the B9. The ball is deflected to the B12, where, in order to prevent A from catching the blocked kick, a B player kicks the ball towards his end zone. The ball does not touch the ground.
A) The ball goes out of the back of the endzone, above the crossbar and between the uprights.
B) The ball goes out of the back of the endzone, below the crossbar and between the uprights.
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Right, the ball was blocked one yard beyond the neutral zone but is said to have happened inside the zone. So, the following provision of 8-4-2-b-1 should apply:
"If the ball is untouched by Team B beyond the neutral zone (this ball was never touched beyond the neutral zone as we've decided) and is declared dead beyond the neutral zone, it belongs to team B. ....Team B will next snap the ball at its 20-yard line"
We can muddy the scenario even further. Let's try this:
A 4/5 @ B10. A's FG attempt is blocked at the B9. The ball is deflected to the B12, where, in order to prevent A from catching the blocked kick, a B player kicks the ball towards his end zone. The ball does not touch the ground.
A) The ball goes out of the back of the endzone, above the crossbar and between the uprights.
B) The ball goes out of the back of the endzone, below the crossbar and between the uprights.
Both are safety by rule because B is responsible for the ball being out of bounds behind its goal line. I still don't think 8-4-2-b-1 applies because if A declines the penalty the result of the play is a safety and if A accepts the penalty they can have it 1/G @ B5 since we would enforce it from the previous spot. This one made my head hurt looking through the rule book.
Illegal formation, A16 became a numbering exception when A61 touched the ball and was at the end of the line at the snap. 4/9@B-45. A16 is an ineligible player by position so no foul for OPI. Result of the play is a first down for team A. The clock was stopped to administer a penalty, so it starts on the ready.
Agree! Numbering exceptions are very difficult sometimes.
A 4/12 @ A35. A's punt lands at the B 20 where it touches a B player. B21 bats the ball backwards and into the end zone. A15 muffs the ball out of the back of the end zone. During the kick, at the B5, B23 pushed A82 in the back to the ground while A82 was attempting to get to the loose ball. After the ball was dead, B23 stands over A82 taunting him. The clock reads 0:00 at the end of the first half. Ruling?
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Both are safety by rule because B is responsible for the ball being out of bounds behind its goal line. I still don't think 8-4-2-b-1 applies because if A declines the penalty the result of the play is a safety and if A accepts the penalty they can have it 1/G @ B5 since we would enforce it from the previous spot. This one made my head hurt looking through the rule book.
Agree! Numbering exceptions are very difficult sometimes.
Situation A is also a field goal by rule. A place kick that was never grounded and only touched a player of B that goes through the uprights is a field goal. So it's a safety and a field goal by rule. Also the foul is PSK (for the situation where the field goal is NOT good), so A can't accept the penalty to get a 1st down. PSK because even though the result of a play is a safety, B would still be next to put the ball in play via free kick.
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Situation A is also a field goal by rule. A place kick that was never grounded and only touched a player of B that goes through the uprights is a field goal. So it's a safety and a field goal by rule. Also the foul is PSK (for the situation where the field goal is NOT good), so A can't accept the penalty to get a 1st down. PSK because even though the result of a play is a safety, B would still be next to put the ball in play via free kick.
Good play to learn from. I never caught PSK enforcement. I was thinking it couldn't be PSK because B fouled before the ball crossed the neutral zone, but that's not the case.
A 4/13 @ A48. A11's punt lands at the B2 and A48 bats the ball backwards to keep it from going over the goal line where it is recovered at the B3 by B12. B12 advances the ball to the B30 where he is hit and fumbles. A88 recovers the loose ball and advances it across B's goal line. During A88's run, B18 is flagged for holding at the B12. Ruling?
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Situation A is also a field goal by rule. A place kick that was never grounded and only touched a player of B that goes through the uprights is a field goal. So it's a safety and a field goal by rule.
In A we simply have a field goal, not a safety. As it is a successful field goal, PSK does not apply.
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A 4/12 @ A35. A's punt lands at the B 20 where it touches a B player. B21 bats the ball backwards and into the end zone. A15 muffs the ball out of the back of the end zone. During the kick, at the B5, B23 pushed A82 in the back to the ground while A82 was attempting to get to the loose ball. After the ball was dead, B23 stands over A82 taunting him. The clock reads 0:00 at the end of the first half. Ruling?
Team B is responsible for the ball being dead behind their own goal line, so the result of the play is a safety. Team B will put the ball next in play so PSK applies for the IBB foul by B23. Two points for team A, team B will kick from B-5, extend the period. Team A may take two points and decline the IBB foul by B23, in which case the UNS foul by B23 carries over to the second half kickoff (the likely scenario).
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A 4/13 @ A48. A11's punt lands at the B2 and A48 bats the ball backwards to keep it from going over the goal line where it is recovered at the B3 by B12. B12 advances the ball to the B30 where he is hit and fumbles. A88 recovers the loose ball and advances it across B's goal line. During A88's run, B18 is flagged for holding at the B12. Ruling?
Oldie but goldie. The foul for DH is declined by rule. Team B has the option to take the ball at the spot of the illegal touching. 1/10@B-2 for team B. If A88 is tackled in the field of play, team A will keep the ball after enforcing the team B DH foul. This is intentional, as there is an A.R. (6-3-2-III) with the same play situation.
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May be a dumb one, but turned into a real headscratcher: Team A punts from his own 7. Team B blocks the punt and tries to recover the ball. A stumbling Team B player, while trying to pick up the ball kicks it accidentally and it enters Team A's endzone, where is recovered by a Team A player, not the punter.
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May be a dumb one, but turned into a real headscratcher: Team A punts from his own 7. Team B blocks the punt and tries to recover the ball. A stumbling Team B player, while trying to pick up the ball kicks it accidentally and it enters Team A's endzone, where is recovered by a Team A player, not the punter.
Unless the ball crossed the neutral zone at some point, the ball continues in play. If Team A does not get the ball out if the end zone, it is a safety. The kick remains a kick and Team A retains responsibility for it since unintentional kicking and other muffs do not add new impetus. If the ball did cross the NZ after it was blocked, it is dead when A recovers it and is a safety.
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Unless the ball crossed the neutral zone at some point, the ball continues in play. If Team A does not get the ball out if the end zone, it is a safety. The kick remains a kick and Team A retains responsibility for it since unintentional kicking and other muffs do not add new impetus. If the ball did cross the NZ after it was blocked, it is dead when A recovers it and is a safety.
And, assuming this was a fourth down, as it is a kick and not a fumble, any team A player may pick the ball up and advance from the end zone (if the kick did not cross the NZ).
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Thank you both. It was what I thought, the ball never crossed the neutral zone so no change of possession there. We weren't sure if the impetus of Team B constituted "new impetus" and that would've spared Team A from the safety.
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Oldie but goldie. The foul for DH is declined by rule. Team B has the option to take the ball at the spot of the illegal touching. 1/10@B-2 for team B. If A88 is tackled in the field of play, team A will keep the ball after enforcing the team B DH foul. This is intentional, as there is an A.R. (6-3-2-III) with the same play situation.
I know there's an AR with that play and that result. But why is this not a 10-2-2-d-2-b kind of play? Run is over in the end zone, after change of team possession and it's not a try nor a safety
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I know there's an AR with that play and that result. But why is this not a 10-2-2-d-2-b kind of play? Run is over in the end zone, after change of team possession and it's not a try nor a safety
That rule applies to non-scoring plays and the result here is a score. Basically rule 10-2-5-a-2 trumps 10-2-2-d-2-b.
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Happy Monday! hEaDbAnG
4. 3rd & 8 @ B-16. Team A has no timeouts, 4th quarter, 20 seconds on the clock. QB A11
completes a pass to the TE A80 at the B-10. A11 hurries toward the LOS motioning to
spike the ball. The Team A coach, seeing the QB is about to spike the ball on 4th down,
runs out onto the field past the numbers yelling at him to stop. The L flags the coach for
UNS with 0:09 on the clock. Ruling?
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Happy Monday! hEaDbAnG
4. 3rd & 8 @ B-16. Team A has no timeouts, 4th quarter, 20 seconds on the clock. QB A11
completes a pass to the TE A80 at the B-10. A11 hurries toward the LOS motioning to
spike the ball. The Team A coach, seeing the QB is about to spike the ball on 4th down,
runs out onto the field past the numbers yelling at him to stop. The L flags the coach for
UNS with 0:09 on the clock. Ruling?
The foul stopped the clock, so we'll have a 10 second runoff. Game over.
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The foul stopped the clock, so we'll have a 10 second runoff. Game over.
This is what I would rule as well but note the wording of the rule... "if a player of either team commits a foul that causes the clock to stop".
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This is what I would rule as well but note the wording of the rule... "if a player of either team commits a foul that causes the clock to stop".
Where did you see that? My copy of 3-4-4-a says:
10-Second Runoff from Game Clock--Foul
ARTICLE 4. a. With the game clock running and less than one minute remaining
in either half, before a change of team possession if either team commits a foul that
causes the clock to stop, the officials may subtract 10 seconds from the game clock
at the option of the offended team.
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Where did you see that? My copy of 3-4-4-a says:
10-Second Runoff from Game Clock--Foul
ARTICLE 4. a. With the game clock running and less than one minute remaining
in either half, before a change of team possession if either team commits a foul that
causes the clock to stop, the officials may subtract 10 seconds from the game clock
at the option of the offended team.
I'm still using my book from last season. Perhaps this is another editorial change they buried in there.
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Where did you see that? My copy of 3-4-4-a says:
10-Second Runoff from Game Clock--Foul
ARTICLE 4. a. With the game clock running and less than one minute remaining
in either half, before a change of team possession if either team commits a foul that
causes the clock to stop, the officials may subtract 10 seconds from the game clock
at the option of the offended team.
Interesting! I didn't see the language change for that! I was going to say the same thing about how the rule states specifically a player, but that changes it now.
3rd & 9 @ A-41. In the 2nd quarter with 0:45 on the clock and running. Both teams have one (1) timeout remaining. QB A9 in shotgun formation takes the snap and attempts to pass the ball to RB A25 who is blocked to the ground by LB B55 at the A-45. A9 gets pressured by B56 and rolls out to the HL side of the field. Unable to find an open receiver A9 runs to the A-42 (entire body beyond LOS), and just before stepping out of bounds he tosses the ball forward and underhanded downfield to the A-44 where no team A player is in the area. While A9 was running B21 held A88 at the A-49 in the middle of the field. After the play, B56 hits A9 late after he stepped out of bounds. The clock shows 0:33 when A9 steps out of bounds. Include clock status in your answer. Ruling?
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Interesting! I didn't see the language change for that! I was going to say the same thing about how the rule states specifically a player, but that changes it now.
3rd & 9 @ A-41. In the 2nd quarter with 0:45 on the clock and running. Both teams have one (1) timeout remaining. QB A9 in shotgun formation takes the snap and attempts to pass the ball to RB A25 who is blocked to the ground by LB B55 at the A-45. A9 gets pressured by B56 and rolls out to the HL side of the field. Unable to find an open receiver A9 runs to the A-42 (entire body beyond LOS), and just before stepping out of bounds he tosses the ball forward and underhanded downfield to the A-44 where no team A player is in the area. While A9 was running B21 held A88 at the A-49 in the middle of the field. After the play, B56 hits A9 late after he stepped out of bounds. The clock shows 0:33 when A9 steps out of bounds. Include clock status in your answer. Ruling?
Well let me take a stab:
I have a bunch of offsetting live-ball fouls. Illegal forward pass by A, holdings by B. Dead-ball personal foul on B56 will be enforced. A's ball 1/10 @ B44, clock will start on the snap (forward pass ruled incomplete). 25 second play clock.
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3rd & 9 @ A-41. In the 2nd quarter with 0:45 on the clock and running. Both teams have one (1) timeout remaining. QB A9 in shotgun formation takes the snap and attempts to pass the ball to RB A25 who is blocked to the ground by LB B55 at the A-45. A9 gets pressured by B56 and rolls out to the HL side of the field. Unable to find an open receiver A9 runs to the A-42 (entire body beyond LOS), and just before stepping out of bounds he tosses the ball forward and underhanded downfield to the A-44 where no team A player is in the area. While A9 was running B21 held A88 at the A-49 in the middle of the field. After the play, B56 hits A9 late after he stepped out of bounds. The clock shows 0:33 when A9 steps out of bounds. Include clock status in your answer. Ruling?
A 1/10 @ B-44. The two live-ball fouls offset so there is no 10-second subtraction. Enforce the dead-ball foul from the previous spot. Clock on RFP since pass was to conserve time.
A 4/10 @A40. A10's punt is in flight when B80 blocks A25 below the waist at the B30. Th ball hits the ground at the B10 and bounces into the end zone untouched by Team B.
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A 4/10 @A40. A10's punt is in flight when B80 blocks A25 below the waist at the B30. Th ball hits the ground at the B10 and bounces into the end zone untouched by Team B.
1/10 for team B at B-10. PSKE with the PSK spot at B-20. What am I missing?
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1/10 for team B at B-10. PSKE with the PSK spot at B-20. What am I missing?
Not missing a thing! It can be the simple ones that mess with your head. I agree with that answer.
A 1/10 @ A48. QB A7 throws a pass downfield towards A86. While jockeying for position with B22 at the B29, A86 stepped on the sideline and leaps to catch the pass. A86 tipped the ball into the air and B21 subsequently intercepted the muffed pass at the B28 and returned it for a TD. During B21's return, B98 blocked A88 below the waist from the front at the A46. Video clearly shows that A86 stepped on the sideline and did not reestablish. Ruling?
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Multiple questions with interspersed answers to different questions is confusing. Might I suggest separate posts for each play?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Not missing a thing! It can be the simple ones that mess with your head. I agree with that answer.
A 1/10 @ A48. QB A7 throws a pass downfield towards A86. While jockeying for position with B22 at the B29, A86 stepped on the sideline and leaps to catch the pass. A86 tipped the ball into the air and B21 subsequently intercepted the muffed pass at the B28 and returned it for a TD. During B21's return, B98 blocked A88 below the waist from the front at the A46. Video clearly shows that A86 stepped on the sideline and did not reestablish. Ruling?
Incomplete pass
A 2/10 @ A-48
don't know what to do with the penalty that shouldn't have happened because the play should've been blown dead
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don't know what to do with the penalty that shouldn't have happened because the play should've been blown dead
Personal fouls should be enforced, so 1/10 for team A at B-37.
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Doesn't seem to be confusing Kalle, Bwest and dvasques. You don't have to submit an answer...these are just here for discussion and reference to take back to your local group, crew, chapter, etc. Submit your own if you want. This is just to keep the board alive until these long 90 days pass and to help learn the new book that just came out.
A Try @ B-3. Team A scores a touchdown on the last play of the game to tie the score 28-28. The extra point conversion kick is blocked, and picked up by B26 at the B-2. B26 returns the ball to the A-10 where he is tackled by A88, who grabs the inside back of B26’s collar and immediately jerks him to the ground. B26 gets up and throws the ball at A88.
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A Try @ B-3. Team A scores a touchdown on the last play of the game to tie the score 28-28. The extra point conversion kick is blocked, and picked up by B26 at the B-2. B26 returns the ball to the A-10 where he is tackled by A88, who grabs the inside back of B26’s collar and immediately jerks him to the ground. B26 gets up and throws the ball at A88.
The foul for the horse-collar tackle is declined by rule. Try is no good. The UNS on B26 will be enforced from the succeeding spot in overtime.
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A 4/10 @ B15, field goal attempt. The snap sails over the holder's head and kicker A8 picks up the ball and runs around the end. During A8's run end A88 pulls defensive end B98 to the ground at the line of scrimmage freeing A8's run. A8 slides down at the B-10 where B24 is flagged for a late hit.
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A 4/10 @ B15, field goal attempt. The snap sails over the holder's head and kicker A8 picks up the ball and runs around the end. During A8's run end A88 pulls defensive end B98 to the ground at the line of scrimmage freeing A8's run. A8 slides down at the B-10 where B24 is flagged for a late hit.
Live ball - Dead ball fouls both enforced in order of occurrence
10 yards from LOS for holding by A making A4/20 @ B-25 then
Half the distance from B-25 making it
A 1/10 @ B-12,5
I know these are not quizes but I need to have my mistakes pointed because this whole studying the rulebook by situation is new to me...
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The foul for the horse-collar tackle is declined by rule. Try is no good. The UNS on B26 will be enforced from the succeeding spot in overtime.
Go one step further...what's the down and distance?
A 4/10 @ B15, field goal attempt. The snap sails over the holder's head and kicker A8 picks up the ball and runs around the end. During A8's run end A88 pulls defensive end B98 to the ground at the line of scrimmage freeing A8's run. A8 slides down at the B-10 where B24 is flagged for a late hit.
A 1/10 @ B12.5. First UNS to B24 per 9-2-1-j? I would try to make it one.
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Go one step further...what's the down and distance?
I can't see any reason why it wouldn't be 1st and 10...
Live ball - Dead ball fouls both enforced in order of occurrence
10 yards from LOS for holding by A making A4/20 @ B-25 then
Half the distance from B-25 making it
A 1/10 @ B-12,5
I know these are not quizes but I need to have my mistakes pointed because this whole studying the rulebook by situation is new to me...
Alright then, I think this enforcement is a mistake although nothing you said is incorrect. Take another go at it.
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A 4/10 @ B15, field goal attempt. The snap sails over the holder's head and kicker A8 picks up the ball and runs around the end. During A8's run end A88 pulls defensive end B98 to the ground at the line of scrimmage freeing A8's run. A8 slides down at the B-10 where B24 is flagged for a late hit.
Live-ball fouls do not offset dead-ball fouls.
First complete the live-ball penalty. Team B will decline it, because read the above posts for what happens if they accept it.
The result of the play is B's 1/10 @ B-10 since A8 did not reach the line to gain.
Now complete the dead-ball penalty. Team A will (after complaining and wondering why they can't still have the ball) accept it. Half the distance to the goal line. B's 1/10 @ B-5.
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I tend to forget the option for team B to decline penalties in clean hands
But if there was no foul by A during this play, the result would not be turnover on downs because the late hit would give A an auto first, wouldn't it?
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I tend to forget the option for team B to decline penalties in clean hands
But if there was no foul by A during this play, the result would not be turnover on downs because the late hit would give A an auto first, wouldn't it?
Dang! Missed that one too.
No it would not be auto first because the continuity of downs was broken. Had this been live , then yes A would get a first. But because this was a dead ball foul, B has succeeded in keeping A from gaining a first down and are penalized from the dead ball spot. Good question that you have to pay attention to detail. Also the reason I hate taking tests! On the field, this would have been a no brainer.
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Wow... now my brain exploded...
so a run for 3 yards in a 4/10 that has a late hit by B (or a team B sideline interference with contact) would not result in 1/10 for A after enforcement?!?! Only if it's a live ball foul?
I know this might sound incredibly basic but......
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AR 10-1-5-I
wow... this is life changing for me
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AR 10-1-5-I
wow... this is life changing for me
Yup. Do the live-ball penalties first, figure out the succeeding spot, THEN do the dead-ball penalties. They happen in completely different phases of the game and never offset or influence each other.
(note: pro rules are different)
That said, if a foul happens *very close* to the end of the down, I believe most supervisors would want that to be a live-ball foul *when in question.* An example would be: On fourth down, A88 dives for a pass and gets speared by B99 a split-second before or a split-second after the pass hits the ground. I asked my supervisor whether I should "try to" make this a live-ball foul and he agreed. Anyone have a different philosophy?
But that's different from piling on or a late hit out of bounds. Even when it's bang-bang, those have got to dead-ball fouls because what makes them illegal in the first place is the deadness of the ball.
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AR 10-1-5-I
wow... this is life changing for me
Hey, that's why we do these.
The following play actually occurred, as ridiculous as it may sound.
A 4/20 @ A-40. A8 shanks his punt which lands at the B-45. A8, in disgust, runs down the field and kicks the ball off the ground at the B-40. The ball travels down field to the B-10 where punt returner B12 picks up the ball and returns it to the B-20 where he is tackled by the facemask.
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A 4/20 @ A-40. A8 shanks his punt which lands at the B-45. A8, in disgust, runs down the field and kicks the ball off the ground at the B-40. The ball travels down field to the B-10 where punt returner B12 picks up the ball and returns it to the B-20 where he is tackled by the facemask.
B 1/10 @ B35. The illegal kick can be either previous spot or B's dead ball spot. Since it only carries 10 yards, go with the facemask foul to give B 5 more yards added to the end of the run.
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is this not illegal touching too?
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is this not illegal touching too?
This is illegal touching! B also has the option to take the ball at the touching spot which is what they would want.
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A 4/20 @ A-40. A8 shanks his punt which lands at the B-45. A8, in disgust, runs down the field and kicks the ball off the ground at the B-40. The ball travels down field to the B-10 where punt returner B12 picks up the ball and returns it to the B-20 where he is tackled by the facemask.
is this not illegal touching too?
Note: Illegally kicking a loose ball usually carries a loss of down if it's by team A. But here, since the foul occurred when a scrimmage kick was beyond the NZ, there is no loss of down. The two options are A 4/30 A-30 or B 1/10 B-40. In this case team B will likely take the ball.
So,
A 4/20 @ A-40. A8 shanks his punt which lands at the A-38 and remains behind the NZ. A8, in disgust, runs to the ball and kicks the ball off the ground at the A-36. The ball travels down field to the B-35 where punt returner B12 picks up the ball and returns it to the B-40 where he is tackled by the facemask.
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Note: Illegally kicking a loose ball usually carries a loss of down if it's by team A. But here, since the foul occurred when a scrimmage kick was beyond the NZ, there is no loss of down. The two options are A 4/30 A-30 or B 1/10 B-40. In this case team B will likely take the ball.
So you are saying this isn't illegal touching?
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A 4/20 @ A-40. A8 shanks his punt which lands at the A-38 and remains behind the NZ. A8, in disgust, runs to the ball and kicks the ball off the ground at the A-36. The ball travels down field to the B-35 where punt returner B12 picks up the ball and returns it to the B-40 where he is tackled by the facemask.
Would have fallen for this but in the context I think I get it right :) B 1/10 @ A-30, previous spot, loss of down. Option to have it at A-45 after the FM penalty, but would not give that option to the captain. No illegal touching option.
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Sorry, BlindZebra, I didn't mean to imply that it wasn't illegal touching, just that there is no loss of down, so neither of the penalty enforcements are better than taking the ball at the illegal touching spot.
Kalle, my situation would be a spot foul, so B 1/10 A-26.
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Kalle, my situation would be a spot foul, so B 1/10 A-26.
Yup, a foul against the ball is always a pure 3 and 1 foul...
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Kalle, my situation would be a spot foul, so B 1/10 A-26.
I disagree. 6-3-13 and 10-2-4 both say "Penalties for all fouls between the goal lines by the kicking team other than kick-catch interference during...a scrimmage kick play in which the ball crosses the neutral zone... are enforced either at the previous spot or where the subsequent dead ball belongs to Team B, at the option of Team B." (My emphasis added)
While this would normally be enforced from the spot of the foul because of 3-and-1, 6-3-13 and 10-2-4 specifically say it has to be previous spot or the dead ball spot.
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Sorry, BlindZebra, I didn't mean to imply that it wasn't illegal touching, just that there is no loss of down, so neither of the penalty enforcements are better than taking the ball at the illegal touching spot.
Kalle, my situation would be a spot foul, so B 1/10 A-26.
Ah! Makes sense now when I read it that way. But are we saying that this is a 3 & 1 enforcement? I'm with Legacy on this one. Since the original play was that the ball crossed the NZ, we are now using the enforcement 10-2-4...wouldn't we? I mean the rule specifically states all fouls other than KCI. Since this isn't KCI, why would IKB be different?
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From 2014 Bulletin #1
Foul by Team A in Its End Zone
2. Fourth and 25 at the A-3. A22 punts from his end zone. Tackle A77 holds in the end zone before or during the kick. B33 returns the punt to the B-45.
RULING: Team B may accept a safety or elect to have the penalty enforced at the B-45. In the latter case, it would be first and 10 for Team B at the A-45. (10-2-2-b)
I'm citing that bulletin play because my understanding of the phrase "enforced at the previous spot" in 6-3-13 and 10-2-4 is that we enforce the penalty with the previous spot as the basic spot (or use special enforcement if applicable). It seems with this bulletin play, RR is using the special enforcement from 10-2-2-b, which signals to me that we should enforce the team A penalty as we would in any other situation if team B elects not to tack on the penalty under 6-3-13 (10-2-4). If RR's ruling on this bulletin play had been, A 4/26.5 at the A-1.5 or B 1/10 at the B-45, then that would signal that the "enforce at the previous spot" was a literal interpretation.
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I'm citing that bulletin play because my understanding of the phrase "enforced at the previous spot" in 6-3-13 and 10-2-4 is that we enforce the penalty with the previous spot as the basic spot (or use special enforcement if applicable). It seems with this bulletin play, RR is using the special enforcement from 10-2-2-b, which signals to me that we should enforce the team A penalty as we would in any other situation if team B elects not to tack on the penalty under 6-3-13 (10-2-4). If RR's ruling on this bulletin play had been, A 4/26.5 at the A-1.5 or B 1/10 at the B-45, then that would signal that the "enforce at the previous spot" was a literal interpretation.
I think I agree with you. The rule language is not very clear and can be read either way, but it would be strange to fall back only to the special enforcement in this. To take a more annoying example, take the punt+illegal kicking play we have with the illegal kicking occurring in team A end zone and the ball then crossing the NZ. Would you not have a safety as one of the options for team B?
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I think I agree with you. The rule language is not very clear and can be read either way, but it would be strange to fall back only to the special enforcement in this. To take a more annoying example, take the punt+illegal kicking play we have with the illegal kicking occurring in team A end zone and the ball then crossing the NZ. Would you not have a safety as one of the options for team B?
With the updated language this year, a safety is unambiguously the only option as this is a foul in the end zone.
Last year the situation was murkier.
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Ok I think I see where you are coming from now.
A 4/20 @ A-40. A8 shanks his punt which lands at the A-38 and remains behind the NZ. A8, in disgust, runs to the ball and kicks the ball off the ground at the A-36. The ball travels down field to the B-35 where punt returner B12 picks up the ball and returns it to the B-40 where he is tackled by the facemask.
I agree with both of you that this would be a spot foul and B 1/10 @ A26
A 4/20 @ A-40. A8 shanks his punt which lands at the B-45. A8, in disgust, runs down the field and kicks the ball off the ground at the B-40. The ball travels down field to the B-10 where punt returner B12 picks up the ball and returns it to the B-20 where he is tackled by the facemask.
But let me understand you on this play. What you are saying is that if B elects the previous spot as the enforcement spot, 3 & 1 kicks in and the previous spot is the basic spot. The loss of down still counts and we are going 10 yards from the A40 and giving B the ball making it B 1/10 @ A30. Correct?
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Ok I think I see where you are coming from now.
I agree with both of you that this would be a spot foul and B 1/10 @ A26
A 4/20 @ A-40. A8 shanks his punt which lands at the B-45. A8, in disgust, runs down the field and kicks the ball off the ground at the B-40. The ball travels down field to the B-10 where punt returner B12 picks up the ball and returns it to the B-20 where he is tackled by the facemask.
But let me understand you on this play. What you are saying is that if B elects the previous spot as the enforcement spot, 3 & 1 kicks in and the previous spot is the basic spot. The loss of down still counts and we are going 10 yards from the A40 and giving B the ball making it B 1/10 @ A30. Correct?
Yes, previous spot is the basic spot and 3 & 1 enforcement makes it a spot foul (in my scenario), also a loss of down because the illegal kicking occurs when the ball is behind the NZ. 9-4-4-Penalty
In the new play you entered, previous spot is the basic spot and 3 & 1 enforcement makes enforcment from the previous spot, but there is no loss of down in the penalty because this is the exception, the scrimmage kick is beyond the NZ when the illegal kicking occurs, so B would have two options: B 1/10 @ B-35 or A 4/30 @ A-30. 9-4-4-Penalty-Exception
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Yes, previous spot is the basic spot and 3 & 1 enforcement makes it a spot foul (in my scenario), also a loss of down because the illegal kicking occurs when the ball is behind the NZ. 9-4-4-Penalty
In the new play you entered, previous spot is the basic spot and 3 & 1 enforcement makes enforcment from the previous spot, but there is no loss of down in the penalty because this is the exception, the scrimmage kick is beyond the NZ when the illegal kicking occurs, so B would have two options: B 1/10 @ B-35 or A 4/30 @ A-30. 9-4-4-Penalty-Exception
This play screwed me up...but I understand now it now.
To continue with kick plays:
A4/1 @B45. A10, from shotgun formation, makes a quick kick. After the ball is kicked, B45 contacts A10 causing him to fall to the ground, The ball lands in B's end zone untouched by B. Ruling?
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A4/1 @B45. A10, from shotgun formation, makes a quick kick. After the ball is kicked, B45 contacts A10 causing him to fall to the ground, The ball lands in B's end zone untouched by B. Ruling?
Sounds like it is not obvious that a scrimmage kick will be made, so no foul, unless late enough to be a PF against a player obviously out of play. 1/10 for team B at B-20.
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4/8 @ A35. B45 is in position to catch the put at the B25 when A2, thinking he has timed the coverage correctly, tackles B45 below the waist before the ball arrives. The ball bounces at the B25 and is recovered by B6 at the B15. B6 returns the ball to the B40 where he is forced out of bounds. Ruling? Discuss communication to the Referee.
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4/8 @ A35. B45 is in position to catch the put at the B25 when A2, thinking he has timed the coverage correctly, tackles B45 below the waist before the ball arrives. The ball bounces at the B25 and is recovered by B6 at the B15. B6 returns the ball to the B40 where he is forced out of bounds. Ruling? Discuss communication to the Referee.
B 1/10 @ B-40 because 6-4-1 penalty states it's a spot of the foul enforcement. And I can't find any other case in which the 15 could be tacked on...
I'm interested in the communication discussion...
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I seem to recall that at some point in the past few years RR put a KCI play on one of the seasons videos that relates to this topic. Basically what occurred was KCI that was not targeting but was unnecessarily rough. Team B had a good return so simply penalizing for the interference was not going to be of benefit. I don't remember his exact verbiage but essentially it was to call the foul KCI by UNR and enforce the UNR as a tack-on.
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Where do we find text that says UNR can be tacked on?
I'm having trouble finding UNR at all
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I remember that video too. Can't put my fingers on it right now.
Rule 9-1, the opening paragraph contains language about UNR.
You could tack-on the UNR because it would be a Team A foul during the kick other than KCI (6-3-13, 10-2-4).
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yes... it's there... my miss
and I looked at it 3 times
8]
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You can treat KCI just like DPI, in that you can call an action that qualifies both as a PF and a KCI/DPI a PF, if the enforcement is better for the offended team. I would like the rule language changed to reflect this.
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You can treat KCI just like DPI, in that you can call an action that qualifies both as a PF and a KCI/DPI a PF, if the enforcement is better for the offended team. I would like the rule language changed to reflect this.
All are right! I don't remember seeing the Redding video, but there is a rule in the book that talks about it. take a look at 6-4-1-g. Read that yesterday and thought it was interesting.
I would turn this into a UNR so that they can tack this on.
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A 2/4@ A45. A11 drops back and throws to A88 at the 50. Before the ball arrives, B21 launches and contacts A88's helmet with his shoulder. The ball deflects off A88 and is caught by A82 who runs it to the B38 before he is tackled. Ruling?
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A 2/4@ A45. A11 drops back and throws to A88 at the 50. Before the ball arrives, B21 launches and contacts A88's helmet with his shoulder. The ball deflects off A88 and is caught by A82 who runs it to the B38 before he is tackled. Ruling?
Personal foul, pass interference with targeting. A 1/10 @ B23. B21 is ejected.
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Personal foul, pass interference with targeting. A 1/10 @ B23. B21 is ejected.
Be careful how you would report that to the Referee. Wouldn't want him saying "defensive pass interference with targeting." No biggie if he did since B would decline the DPI and get the ball way down the field at the B38. But I do agree with your ruling. Tack it on!
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Be careful how you would report that to the Referee. Wouldn't want him saying "defensive pass interference with targeting." No biggie if he did since B would decline the DPI and get the ball way down the field at the B38. But I do agree with your ruling. Tack it on!
That's exactly how I would report it because that's how the white hat needs to announce it. If you don't announce "DPI with targeting" and only announce "targeting" then Team A gets nothing if replay overturns the targeting. Also why would B be declining DPI?
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Also why would B be declining DPI?
15 yards from the previous spot would be less advantageous than the result of the play.
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But B wouldn't decline anything since the foul was by B
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But B wouldn't decline anything since the foul was by B
Ah, right, didn't notice the typo :)
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15 yards from the previous spot would be less advantageous than the result of the play.
If DPI happened 5 yards down field, you would decline DPI and take TGT
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If DPI happened 5 yards down field, you would decline DPI and take TGT
Yes, if the referee realizes this. In a game without an IR I think I would like to get only the most likely foul designation (either DPI or TGT) from the calling official, it would make my life as a referee a bit easier. In an IR game you have be more careful, of course. Keeping things simple usually results in fewer errors.
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That's exactly how I would report it because that's how the white hat needs to announce it. If you don't announce "DPI with targeting" and only announce "targeting" then Team A gets nothing if replay overturns the targeting. Also why would B be declining DPI?
Pardon the typo...B wouldn't be declining anything. Coffee late in the day was not a good idea.
I wouldn't report DPI and instead make the DPI a UNR. Agree with you that just calling TGT is not the proper thing to do here. By saying UNR with TGT, it solidifies the fact that we can tack the penalty on if replay removes the TGT. If you report DPI with TGT and replay confirms the TGT, we can't tack the foul on since the penalty enforcement for DPI is specific. Thoughts?
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Try from B3 at position 3. Team A commits a false start and is penalized to the B8. The kick attemt is blocked, but B77 was in the neutral zone at the snap. the penalty takes the ball to the B4 where team A request that the ball be placed at position 1. Is the relocation request granted or denied?
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You'd take the targeting either way as result is more advantageous to A, right?
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Yes, if the referee realizes this. In a game without an IR I think I would like to get only the most likely foul designation (either DPI or TGT) from the calling official, it would make my life as a referee a bit easier. In an IR game you have be more careful, of course. Keeping things simple usually results in fewer errors.
What does replay have to do with this play? This is just regular penalty administration. These are the types of questions you have to ask your calling official if you don't think they're good enough to report the information properly to you... or go over this scenario in pregame and mention to them that this is how you want it reported when you have TGT and another foul.
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Try from B3 at position 3. Team A commits a false start and is penalized to the B8. The kick attemt is blocked, but B77 was in the neutral zone at the snap. the penalty takes the ball to the B4 where team A request that the ball be placed at position 1. Is the relocation request granted or denied?
I just re-read the rule and noticed some blue highlighting this year. I also noticed my prior understanding of it is (I think) wrong, though I'm not sure whether the new editorial change is responsible for that. Here's what I think now, but I'm not positive I'm reading it right: A timeout by either team can "unlock" the spot, but not after Team A has committed a foul. A foul by Team B will always unlock the spot, on the other hand.
So, granted?
It appears the lateral spot after a touchback does not work the same way. Team B fouls do not unlock that spot at all. Only timeouts unlock it, and again, only up until Team A commits a foul.
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You'd take the targeting either way as result is more advantageous to A, right?
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My understanding is that if you have a foul with targeting, only the foul that is called is enforced. For example, if the foul is announced DPI with targeting, the only foul that will be penalized is the DPI. Replay is reviewing that the player is ejected or not. However, if the foul is only announced as targeting replay is reviewing the ejection and if it is confirmed the 15 yard penalty is enforced. Someone please let me know if I am wrong on this, but if we have a foul with targeting...the only option the offended team has is the foul that is reported and not targeting.
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My understanding is that if you have a foul with targeting, only the foul that is called is enforced. For example, if the foul is announced DPI with targeting, the only foul that will be penalized is the DPI. Replay is reviewing that the player is ejected or not. However, if the foul is only announced as targeting replay is reviewing the ejection and if it is confirmed the 15 yard penalty is enforced. Someone please let me know if I am wrong on this, but if we have a foul with targeting...the only option the offended team has is the foul that is reported and not targeting.
Your understanding is not correct. We announce that we have a foul...with targeting in order to announce that we have two fouls. That way, if targeting gets wiped off the board by replay, we can still enforce the one foul we have left.
If we announce the non targeting foul, we fail to penalize B appropriately for targeting. If we only announce targeting and it gets overturned, we are letting B get away with a foul that should be penalized even without the targeting aspect.
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What does replay have to do with this play? This is just regular penalty administration. These are the types of questions you have to ask your calling official if you don't think they're good enough to report the information properly to you... or go over this scenario in pregame and mention to them that this is how you want it reported when you have TGT and another foul.
If I understand the IR rules right, if you have an action that qualifies both as DPI and TGT, and the referee only announces TGT, then if the IR reverses the TGT call, you no longer have any foul. If you announce "DPI by TGT", then you still have a foul even if IR reverses the TGT part.
I don't think this is an issue in any crew that works IR games, though.
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Your understanding is not correct. We announce that we have a foul...with targeting in order to announce that we have two fouls. That way, if targeting gets wiped off the board by replay, we can still enforce the one foul we have left.
If we announce the non targeting foul, we fail to penalize B appropriately for targeting. If we only announce targeting and it gets overturned, we are letting B get away with a foul that should be penalized even without the targeting aspect.
Good to know! Makes sense, but after careful thinking on the field...I would hope that either my R or myself would want me to report it as UNR with TGT so that there is no question that we are tacking this on.
A 4/8 @ A48 A32 punts the ball to the B7 where it hits B25 in the leg. As the ball is rolling on the ground, B25 kicks it at the B4 to prevent Team A from recovering. The ball bounces into team B's end zone and over the end line. Ruling? What are all of Team A's options?
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A 2/12.5 @ A2.5. 7-3-11 penalty enforcement says to enforce at the previous spot
A) B 1/10 @ B6. Continuity of downs was broken since the ball crossed the neutral zone (5-1-4-b). Illegal kicking a loose ball is 10 yards from the basic spot which is the spot of the foul (9-4-4 & 10-2-2-d-1-c).
B) Safety. New impetus was given to the ball when B kicked it (8-7-2-b-1) and was dead behind their goal line. A will elect to decline the penalty and B will kick off from the B20
What is the answer?
This is actually a play straight from the 2013-2014 Reddings Study Guide. It is a Safety in both cases due to the status of the ball remaining as a kick, therefore dead once in the endzone.
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Good to know! Makes sense, but after careful thinking on the field...I would hope that either my R or myself would want me to report it as UNR with TGT so that there is no question that we are tacking this on.
A 4/8 @ A48 A32 punts the ball to the B7 where it hits B25 in the leg. As the ball is rolling on the ground, B25 kicks it at the B4 to prevent Team A from recovering. The ball bounces into team B's end zone and over the end line. Ruling? What are all of Team A's options?
Result of the play is a safety. We have a foul for illegally kicking the ball. I'm not a huge fan of it in this situation, but this is a PSK foul, meaning if A accepts the penalty B will be 1/10 @ B2. A won't want that, so they will decline the foul in order to take the safety.
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If I understand the IR rules right, if you have an action that qualifies both as DPI and TGT, and the referee only announces TGT, then if the IR reverses the TGT call, you no longer have any foul. If you announce "DPI by TGT", then you still have a foul even if IR reverses the TGT part.
I don't think this is an issue in any crew that works IR games, though.
Ok, maybe I misunderstood your last post.
To my comment "If DPI happened 5 yards down field, you would decline DPI and take TGT", I thought that in your reply that you implied that unless your game had IR, you're not going to get the enforcement right.
After re-reading your post, it seems as though you meant that you would like the calling official to give you either TGT or DPI, whichever is more advantageous. I gotcha. Apologies.
Even in games without IR, I'd still like the calling official to give both. The DPI at times could be more advantageous than the TGT when you're inside the 30 because of half the distance procedures.
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Result of the play is a safety. We have a foul for illegally kicking the ball. I'm not a huge fan of it in this situation, but this is a PSK foul, meaning if A accepts the penalty B will be 1/10 @ B2. A won't want that, so they will decline the foul in order to take the safety.
OK so you got the options correct. Please tell where the PSK spot is. I don't know how you get to the B2 because the end of the kick is behind B's goal line but the result is not a touchback so the PSK spot isn't the B20. I was lost when I read it in the new AR's on Arbiter and I'm still lost.
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OK so you got the options correct. Please tell where the PSK spot is. I don't know how you get to the B2 because the end of the kick is behind B's goal line but the result is not a touchback so the PSK spot isn't the B20. I was lost when I read it in the new AR's on Arbiter and I'm still lost.
I ahven't seen the new play interpretations yet so my answer may conflict until I get a chance to read them...
My interpretation is that the impetus on the kick is irrelevant when determining the PSK spot. 2-25-11-b says:
when the kick ends in Team B’s end zone, the postscrimmage kick spot is Team
B’s 20-yard line.
So to me it doesn't matter how the kick got there, if the kick ends in the end zone and there is a PSK foul, the PSK spot is the 20.
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A 2/8 @ A42. :45 remaining in the game. During the play, A55 loses his helmet. The ball carrier is tackled inbounds short of the line to gain. Defensive tackle B73 is flagged for being in the neutral zone at the
snap. Ruling?
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A 2/3 @A-47
A55 is out for a play
B has the option of ZAP-10
Because DOF did not stop the clock but the helmet off did
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Same play but clock reads :08 when play ends?
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Same play but clock reads :08 when play ends?
Depends on the score. If B is winning, I would assume they would want the 10 second runoff; but if B is loosing, I would think they would decline the option.
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Why wouldn't the DOF cause the clock to stop?
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Why wouldn't the DOF cause the clock to stop?
Because of Rogers' most recent "Play Interpretation".
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as far as I understand, DOF doesn't stop the clock. What stops the clock is the completion of the penalty and that does not count as a reason why the clock stopped when talking about runnoff
only fouls that kills the ball are considered to be fouls that stop the clock
as far as I understand it...
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RR is making a distinction between play-related actions that cause the clock to be stopped versus stoppages for administrative reasons. If the foul itself is not the reason for stopping the clock (FST, some IS, etc.), then for other fouls that occur during the play ( e.g. Holding) we are stopping the clock to administer the penalty. Play-related actions include helmets off, injuries, fouls that cause the clock to stop, making the LTG. These are the only ones that count when determining zap10. Administrative stoppages do not offset these play-related actions.
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ball (carrier or fumble forward) out of bounds too, right?
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Administrative stoppages do not offset these play-related actions.
...Except for the administrative stoppage for reaching the line to gain.
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...Except for the administrative stoppage for reaching the line to gain.
Which I think is the dumbest interpretation of all.
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A try from B 8 after a FST penalty enforcement. QB A8 throws the ball to A88 in the back right corner of the end zone. A88 is contacted by B21 just before the pass arrives and the pass falls incomplete. Ruling?
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DPI. Retry from the 2.
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A 2/10 @ B20. :01 remains on the clock and Team B leads 35-31. A11 drops back and throws a pass toward A14 in the end zone. A 14 leaps high in the air and secures the ball while airborne in the end zone. B29 immediately hits him before he touches the ground in the end zone and drives him out of the end zone where he lands inbounds at the B 1/2 yard line, goes to the ground and maintains control of the ball upon hitting the ground. Ruling?
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Touchdown. He gets credit for his forward progress before being contacted. Since that is in the endzone, it's a touchdown.
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Touchdown. He gets credit for his forward progress before being contacted. Since that is in the endzone, it's a touchdown.
Is the game over?
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Is the game over?
No you have to line up a try.
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Bwest got it. You have to play the try. Rule 8 says the try is an opportunity for either team to score points. Since Team B could conceivably score two points to tie the game, you have to play the try.
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If I am th A coach I take a knee............................... pi1eOn
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No you have to line up a try.
Hot dam you guys are too good!
2/5 @ A37. A9 fakes a hand off and runs towards the right sideline, stumbles and falls to the ground at the A40. During A9's run, back A48 turns and blocks B44, who is chasing A9, with a blindside block by lowing his head and striking the helmet of B44 with a forcible blow with the crown of his helmet at the A32 yard line. After A9 is on the ground, he is unnecessarily hit late by B27 while he is on the ground at the A40. Ruling?
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A 1/10 @A-37
TGT behind NZ, enforced from previous spot, bringing the ball to A-22, which is now the succeeding spot.
UNR enforced from succeeding spot, bringing the ball to A-37, auto first
A48 is DQed
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RR is making a distinction between play-related actions that cause the clock to be stopped versus stoppages for administrative reasons. If the foul itself is not the reason for stopping the clock (FST, some IS, etc.), then for other fouls that occur during the play ( e.g. Holding) we are stopping the clock to administer the penalty. Play-related actions include helmets off, injuries, fouls that cause the clock to stop, making the LTG. These are the only ones that count when determining zap10. Administrative stoppages do not offset these play-related actions.
So.... this has been changed. We now consider stopping the clock to administer penalty as reason to offset the runnoff
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So.... this has been changed. We now consider stopping the clock to administer penalty as reason to offset the runnoff
Makes a lot of sense to me. If the helmet does not come off then we are stopping the clock for the penalty.
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A 3/3 @ B20. A15 takes the snap, delays and throws a pass to receiver A16, who catches the ball at the B4, is hit but falls forward into the end zone before he is down. As A15 is delaying prior to throwing the pass, A55 releases downfield and is at the B17.5 when A15 releases the pass. When the pass is caught by A16, A55 is running at the A13. Ruling?
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Makes a lot of sense to me. If the helmet does not come off then we are stopping the clock for the penalty.
yes but if the helmet doesn't come off, and the penalty is for holding, there's still no runnoff
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A 3/3 @ B20. A15 takes the snap, delays and throws a pass to receiver A16, who catches the ball at the B4, is hit but falls forward into the end zone before he is down. As A15 is delaying prior to throwing the pass, A55 releases downfield and is at the B17.5 when A15 releases the pass. When the pass is caught by A16, A55 is running at the A13. Ruling?
Touchdown, at the time of the pass the lineman wasn't more than three yards downfield.
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Touchdown, at the time of the pass the lineman wasn't more than three yards downfield.
Agree.
A 3/10 @ B37. A86 kicks a successful field goal from the B44 as time expires in the first half. Linebacker B2, who was lined up stationary at the B34, runs forward after the snap, jumps high in the air in an attempt to block the kick, and then lands forcefully on B75 and B95 at the B37. Ruling?
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Agree.
A 3/10 @ B37. A86 kicks a successful field goal from the B44 as time expires in the first half. Linebacker B2, who was lined up stationary at the B34, runs forward after the snap, jumps high in the air in an attempt to block the kick, and then lands forcefully on B75 and B95 at the B37. Ruling?
We're going to decline the foul for leaping and go to halftime.
If A absolutely insists they can accept the penalty and run an untimed play from B's 22 yard line.
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A 2/10 @ B-35. QB A11 takes the snap and drops straight back. Defensive end B95 comes through the line untouched and is about to sack the QB who is still inside the tackle box when LT A75 obviously blocks B95 in the back in the numbers causing him to fall and not make the tackle. The QB throws a pass which is complete to A88 in the end zone for a TD who then taunts the crowd. B95 was offside at the snap and after he was knocked down by A75, he got up and slugged A75.
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Since the QB is still in the pocket and the block in the back is from a lineman, it's legal. There's an AR somewhere that says it more eloquently, but basically a lineman in pass protection can block in the back even if the ball had technically left the blocking zone as long as the QB is still in the pocket. The offside is declined by rule since Team A scored a touchdown. B95 is disqualified for te slug. Team A can choose to have the penalty for that foul enforced on the try or kickoff. Then Team B can choose to enforce the UNS at either the try or kickoff as well. If they both choose the try, it will be from the B-16.5, not offsetting.
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Since the QB is still in the pocket and the block in the back is from a lineman, it's legal. There's an AR somewhere that says it more eloquently, but basically a lineman in pass protection can block in the back even if the ball had technically left the blocking zone as long as the QB is still in the pocket. The offside is declined by rule since Team A scored a touchdown. B95 is disqualified for te slug. Team A can choose to have the penalty for that foul enforced on the try or kickoff. Then Team B can choose to enforce the UNS at either the try or kickoff as well. If they both choose the try, it will be from the B-16.5, not offsetting.
I like the answer...any objections? The AR you are looking for is 9-3-3-IX. I didn't know that was in the book until this past weekend when someone showed me. I thought he was crazy for saying that it was a legal block when the block was outside the blocking zone. Then he showed me that. Crow tastes great at 7:00 in the morning.
A 2/10 @A45. A2 drops back and throws a deep pass that is intercepted by B21 at the B15. B21 returns the ball to the A48 where he is tackled. During the pass, A76 holds B55 at the LOS. After the interception, B9 targets A84 with a high hit at the B20. During the interception return B54 blocks A65 in the back at the B40. Immediately after B21 is tackled, B11 blindside blocks QB A2 in the head with initial force of his forearm to the head of A2. Replay shows that B9’s hit on A84 is with the shoulder and initial contact is to the chest. Replay confirms the targeting call on B11. Ruling?
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B can decline the offset and take the ball after enforcement of TGT by B-11.
Since the hit by B9 was deemed legal by replay (from what I understood), that hit is irrelevant to the play
B11 is out of the game
B 1/10 @ A37
Now... if B9 had also targeted we'd have
B 1/10 @ B-10
B11 and B9 out of the game
right?
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Now... if B9 had also targeted we'd have
B 1/10 @ B-10
B11 and B9 out of the game
right?
Almost. One targeting was a live ball foul and one was a dead ball foul. So both would be enforced. Both players would be gone and it would be first down from the B-5.
Follow up: Let's say the two targeting reviews are flipped. B9's (during the return) is confirmed, but B11's ( after the play) is overturned because the contact was deemed to be to the shoulder. What do you have?
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right... missed that one
and I'd have the same B 1/10 @ B-5
B9 out for TGT
B11 foul should be late hit with TGT so when TGT was taken away, we'd still have 15 for UNR
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A 2/10 @A45. A2 drops back and throws a deep pass that is intercepted by B21 at the B15. B21 returns the ball to the A48 where he is tackled. During the pass, A76 holds B55 at the LOS. After the interception, B9 targets A84 with a high hit at the B20. During the interception return B54 blocks A65 in the back at the B40. Immediately after B21 is tackled, B11 blindside blocks QB A2 in the head with initial force of his forearm to the head of A2. Replay shows that B9’s hit on A84 is with the shoulder and initial contact is to the chest. Replay confirms the targeting call on B11. Ruling?
B11 is out of the game
B 1/10 @ A37
Wait let's go back...I see a foul by A before the interception and a foul by B after the interception. The foul by B9 is nothing since Reply reversed the call. B has clean hands so they can decline offsetting fouls and be penalized for the IBB at the B40 since the run ended beyond the foul. That makes it B 1/10 @ B30. But you have a dead ball foul by B11 which will be the full 15 making it B 1/10 @ B15. Where am I going wrong?
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Wait let's go back...I see a foul by A before the interception and a foul by B after the interception. The foul by B9 is nothing since Reply reversed the call. B has clean hands so they can decline offsetting fouls and be penalized for the IBB at the B40 since the run ended beyond the foul. That makes it B 1/10 @ B30. But you have a dead ball foul by B11 which will be the full 15 making it B 1/10 @ B15. Where am I going wrong?
Yes that's also the way I saw it too so would be interested on why not.
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I simply didn't read the block in the back part of the play...
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A 2/10 @A45. A2 drops back and throws a deep pass that is intercepted by B21 at the B15. B21 returns the ball to the A48 where he is tackled. During the pass, A76 holds B55 at the LOS. After the interception, B9 targets A84 with a high hit at the B20. During the interception return B54 blocks A65 in the back at the B40. Immediately after B21 is tackled, B11 blindside blocks QB A2 in the head with initial force of his forearm to the head of A2. Replay shows that B9’s hit on A84 is with the shoulder and initial contact is to the chest. Replay confirms the targeting call on B11. Ruling?
So, on the original play, we have
A76 OH prior to change of possession, which B can decline to keep the ball
B9 TGT @ B-20 that is taken away by replay
B54 IBB @ B-40
B11 UNR/TGT @ A-48, which is where the last run ends
So B 1/10 @ B-15 - B11 out of the game
If both targeting fouls are confirmed, then you throw away the IBB and enforce both TGT to have
B 1/10 @ B-5 - B9 and B11 out of the game
And if the targeting by B9 is confirmed and by B11 is take away by replay, you still throw away the IBB and have
B 1/10 @ B-5 - B9 out of the game, B11 stays but is still penalized by UNR
did I get everything this time?
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So, on the original play, we have
A76 OH prior to change of possession, which B can decline to keep the ball
B9 TGT @ B-20 that is taken away by replay
B54 IBB @ B-40
B11 UNR/TGT @ A-48, which is where the last run ends
So B 1/10 @ B-15 - B11 out of the game
If both targeting fouls are confirmed, then you throw away the IBB and enforce both TGT to have
B 1/10 @ B-5 - B9 and B11 out of the game
And if the targeting by B9 is confirmed and by B11 is take away by replay, you still throw away the IBB and have
B 1/10 @ B-5 - B9 out of the game, B11 stays but is still penalized by UNR
did I get everything this time?
Yeah I agree. As long as you report your foul on B11 as UNR/TGT and replay takes off the TGT we are going to the B5 since we still have the UNR component of the foul. But if you simply report targeting by B11 and replay reverses it, we are only going to the B10.
A 3/9 @ A-41. In the 2nd quarter with :45 seconds on the clock and running. Both teams have one (1) timeout remaining. QB A9 in shotgun formation takes the snap and attempts to pass the ball to RB A25 who is blocked to the ground by LB B55 at the A-45. A9 gets pressured by B56 and roles out to the HL side of the field. Unable to find an open receiver A9 runs to the A-42(entire body beyond LOS), and just before stepping out of bounds he tosses the ball forward underhanded downfield to the A-44 where no team A player is in the area. While A9 was running B21 held A88 at the A-49 in the middle of the field. After the play, B56 hits A9 late after he stepped out of bounds. The clock shows :33 seconds when A9 steps out of bounds. Ruling? Include clock status in your answer.
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The illegal forward pass and the defensive holding offset. There is no runoff since the fouls offset. The dead ball foul will be enforced from the succeeding spot (which happens to also be the previous spot on this play). It will be 1st and 10 at the B-44. The incomplete forward pass is what caused the clock to stop, so the clock will start on the snap. Play clock at 25 since we administered a penalty.
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The illegal forward pass and the defensive holding offset. There is no runoff since the fouls offset. The dead ball foul will be enforced from the succeeding spot (which happens to also be the previous spot on this play). It will be 1st and 10 at the B-44. The incomplete forward pass is what caused the clock to stop, so the clock will start on the snap. Play clock at 25 since we administered a penalty.
All of this with the following aside:
If you rule that the pass was thrown to conserve time, then the clock starts on the RFP.
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2/10 @ A20. A22 makes a long run to the B30. During the play, A55 helmet comes off as a result of a foul by B75. A55 then picks his helmet up, puts it back on and continues to participate in the play.
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we have an offset and repeat 2/10 @ A-20 there, right?
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Yup. When A55 put his helmet back on and continued to play, that became a personal foul that will offset whatever foul forced his helmet off in the first place. And because of the fouls, there is no chance for a 10 second runoff for the helmet. And A55 can stay in the game since the foul caused it to come off. Clock on the RFP, play clock at 25.
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How about this one I had in a high school game this year.
Kickoff from A-40. The kick is recovered by B13 at his own 20 yard line. At the B-25 he hands off to a teammate crossing in front of him. During the return the Head Linesman drops a flag for Team A's second sideline interference foul of the game. A10 was offside at the kick.
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Kickoff from A-40. The kick is recovered by B13 at his own 20 yard line. At the B-25 he hands off to a teammate crossing in front of him. During the return the Head Linesman drops a flag for Team A's second sideline interference foul of the game. A10 was offside at the kick.
Interestingly sideline interference is a pure live-ball foul, so team B has two options: either accept offsetting fouls and repeat the KO from A-40, or decline both team A live-ball fouls and have the illegal forward handing foul enforced, B 1/10 @ B-20.
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Interestingly sideline interference is a pure live-ball foul, so team B has two options: either accept offsetting fouls and repeat the KO from A-40, or decline both team A live-ball fouls and have the illegal forward handing foul enforced, B 1/10 @ B-20.
Sideline interference is a live ball treated as dead ball foul. It will not offset these live ball fouls. So add the end of either of your options we are marking off a 5-yard DOG (sideline interference) penalty against A.
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Sideline interference is a live ball treated as dead ball foul. It will not offset these live ball fouls. So add the end of either of your options we are marking off a 5-yard DOG (sideline interference) penalty against A.
Correct. For some weird reason I completely missed the "Administer as a dead-ball foul" clause in 9-2-5 (and was surprised, as I thought it was a DB-enforcement).
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I am not sure if anyone has seen something like this.
4th/12 at A7. The snap hits blocking back A34's chest who is not aligned in the end zone and rolls along the ground. B67 bats the ball backward from A's 2 yard line. After being batted, the ball hits B54 on A's 4 and rolls into A's end zone. A3 picks up the ball and punts. The punt is blocked and the ball goes out of A's end zone without entering the field of play.
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I am not sure if anyone has seen something like this.
4th/12 at A7. The snap hits blocking back A34's chest who is not aligned in the end zone and rolls along the ground. B67 bats the ball backward from A's 2 yard line. After being batted, the ball hits B54 on A's 4 and rolls into A's end zone. A3 picks up the ball and punts. The punt is blocked and the ball goes out of A's end zone without entering the field of play.
Impetus is changed when B bats the ball. B is responsible for the ball being in the end zone. The ball never leaves the end zone, so the result of the play is a touchback.
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How do I convince my crew of that?
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Show them 8-7-2-b. It's pretty specific. Batting a loose ball after it touches the ground is new impetus.
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I have, the response I get is "but A kicked the ball". Also, AR 8-5-1 II:
A scrimmage kick fails to cross the neutral zone, or crosses the neutral
zone and is first touched by Team B, or is untouched and then rebounds
into the end zone, where it is declared dead in Team A’s possession.
RULING: Safety (Rule 8-7-2-a).
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But the ball was out of the end zone then B put impetus to it and the ball in the end zone
A punted but the ball never left the end zone. A was not responsible for putting the ball in the end zone.
In the AR, all three situations, the ball only entered the end zone because of impetus by A. So you have safety. In this case, the ball entered the end zone because os impetus by B. For it not to be a touchback, the ball would have to leave the end zone, then enter the end zone again with impetus by B
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Thank you all for your help. I will let you know how the convincing goes.
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There are two questions to answer here:
1. What happens when a scrimmage kick goes out of bounds behind a goal line? Answer is 6-3-8, it belongs to the team defending that goal.
2. Who provided the impetus for the ball to last enter the end zone? In this case it is team B.
Remember that as long as the ball stays in the end zone, the original impetus is always on the team that caused the ball to go there (8-7-1). It would be the same if A3 fumbles the ball out of bounds behind the goal line instead of punting it.
In 8-5-1-II the ball enters the end zone by impetus from the kick.
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Ask them this question. B1 intercepts a pass in his own end zone. While still in the end zone, he is hit and fumbles the ball. The ball rolls out of bounds over the end line. Would you give Team A 2 points?
This is the same thing. Yes the punting/fumbling team put the ball out if bounds, but their opponent was responsible for it being in the end zone and that's what matters.
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B44 is in position to catch a punt at the B-25 when A88 launches and drives his shoulder into B44’s upper chest before the ball arrives. B22 recovers the ball and is tackled at the A-45. The Back Judge drops his flag and reports to the Referee that A88 is charged with interference with the opportunity to catch the kick with targeting, and that A88 is disqualified. The play goes to review by Instant Replay. After review, Replay confirms the target by A88. Ruling?
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B44 is in position to catch a punt at the B-25 when A88 launches and drives his shoulder into B44’s upper chest before the ball arrives. B22 recovers the ball and is tackled at the A-45. The Back Judge drops his flag and reports to the Referee that A88 is charged with interference with the opportunity to catch the kick with targeting, and that A88 is disqualified. The play goes to review by Instant Replay. After review, Replay confirms the target by A88. Ruling?
Tack on the target to the dead ball spot. B 1/10 @ A30, 25, snap.
One more note on the safety/touchback question. Whenever you need to decide, just think "what team is responsible for the ball last crossing the goal line?"
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So if this wasn't confirmed as TGT, B would have to chose between 15 yards from the spot of the foul or decline the penalty?
Or is KCI a personal foul and we can have the 15 yards enforced at spot where subsequent dead ball belong to B?
And then this
B44 is in position to catch a punt inside B's end zone when A88 launches and drives his shoulder into B44’s chest before the ball arrives. Ball hits A44 and bounces into the field at B-1, where B22 recovers the ball and is tackled at the A-45.
Should we go by the penalty statement of KCI in 6-4-1?
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B44 is in position to catch a punt at the B-25 when A88 launches and drives his shoulder into B44’s upper chest before the ball arrives. B22 recovers the ball and is tackled at the A-45. The Back Judge drops his flag and reports to the Referee that A88 is charged with interference with the opportunity to catch the kick with targeting, and that A88 is disqualified. The play goes to review by Instant Replay. After review, Replay confirms the target by A88. Ruling?
I have. The response, yet again is, "but A kicked the ball". I keep saying that doesn't matter. I have won over half the crew. I really wish I had an AR to it or test key with a similar question.
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So if this wasn't confirmed as TGT, B would have to chose between 15 yards from the spot of the foul or decline the penalty?
And then this
B44 is in position to catch a punt inside B's end zone when A88 launches and drives his shoulder into B44’s chest before the ball arrives. Ball hits A44 and bounces into the field at B-1, where B22 recovers the ball and is tackled at the A-45.
Should we go by the penalty statement of KCI in 6-4-1?
KCI isn't a personal foul. If targeting is overturned then B will decline the KCI penalty since as you pointed out that would put them worse off.
KCI in the end zone is enforced from the touchback spot.
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A 4/8 @ A-25 snap. Score A-28, B-27. Timeouts A-1, B-0. :12 4th QTR. B just used their final T.O. to try to get the ball back. A lines up in scrimmage kick formation, the center snaps the ball over punter A13’s head and the ball is rolling at the A-3, where up back A44 muffs the ball to the A-10. To prevent B16 from recovering the ball, A13 intentionally kicks the ball OOB to the A-15. Time runs out during the play. Ruling?
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KCI isn't a personal foul. If targeting is overturned then B will decline the KCI penalty since as you pointed out that would put them worse off.
KCI in the end zone is enforced from the touchback spot.
This is one of those where the National Rules Interpreter made a statement in one of his videos a couple years ago that said a flagrant KCI could be tacked on to the end of the play. This never appears in the rulebook.
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A 4/8 @ A-25 snap. Score A-28, B-27. Timeouts A-1, B-0. :12 4th QTR. B just used their final T.O. to try to get the ball back. A lines up in scrimmage kick formation, the center snaps the ball over punter A13’s head and the ball is rolling at the A-3, where up back A44 muffs the ball to the A-10. To prevent B16 from recovering the ball, A13 intentionally kicks the ball OOB to the A-15. Time runs out during the play. Ruling?
Simple 3-and-1 enforcement with the spot of the foul at A-10 and the end of the related run at A-25. Half the distance to the goal line, loss of right to repeat the down. 1st and 10 for team B at A-5, extend the period.
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Simple 3-and-1 enforcement with the spot of the foul at A-10 and the end of the related run at A-25. Half the distance to the goal line, loss of right to repeat the down. 1st and 10 for team B at A-5, extend the period.
You can't extend the period if the foul specifies loss of down.
Tough luck for team B, but the game is over.
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You can't extend the period if the foul specifies loss of down.
I would agree with this with one exception. This only applies if the foul is by the team in possession. Team A is trailing by 4 points and has 4th and goal at the B-6. A1 runs to the B-4 where he is hit and fumbles. B99, in an attempt to prevent A from recovering the loose ball, kicks the ball at the B-3 and it rolls out of bounds at the B-5. Since the foul was by the team not in possession, you can extend the period. Penalize B half the distance from the basic spot (3 and 1), replay 4th down from the B-2.
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I would agree with this with one exception. This only applies if the foul is by the team in possession. Team A is trailing by 4 points and has 4th and goal at the B-6. A1 runs to the B-4 where he is hit and fumbles. B99, in an attempt to prevent A from recovering the loose ball, kicks the ball at the B-3 and it rolls out of bounds at the B-5. Since the foul was by the team not in possession, you can extend the period. Penalize B half the distance from the basic spot (3 and 1), replay 4th down from the B-2.
Well right, but in this case the illegally kicking foul does not specify loss of down (illegally kicking is only LOD if by team A).
I'm having a hard time thinking of example to illustrate the point you are trying to make, but I do see your point.
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You can't extend the period if the foul specifies loss of down.
Tough luck for team B, but the game is over.
Yup, exactly. Rom has a rule change request on this, not surprisingly, but I'm not holding my breath for it to happen.
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Well right, but in this case the illegally kicking foul does not specify loss of down (illegally kicking is only LOD if by team A).
True. How about this:
Tie game with time running out. Team A's pass is intercepted by B1. At the A-20 he is hit and fumbles the ball. While the ball is loose, A1 kicks the ball to prevent B from recovering it and it rolls out of bounds at the A-16. Although the penalty statement for illegal kicking includes loss of down for fouls by Team A, this would not end the period since Team A was not in possession at the time of the foul. Team B would get an untimed down from the A-10.
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True. How about this:
Tie game with time running out. Team A's pass is intercepted by B1. At the A-20 he is hit and fumbles the ball. While the ball is loose, A1 kicks the ball to prevent B from recovering it and it rolls out of bounds at the A-16. Although the penalty statement for illegal kicking includes loss of down for fouls by Team A, this would not end the period since Team A was not in possession at the time of the foul. Team B would get an untimed down from the A-10.
Agree because A was no longer in possession. But in the original play, even though it is a loose ball, A is still in possession because they have "Team Possession." Now had had the ball crossed the neutral zone or B gained possession, then we could extend the period since it would no longer carry a loss of down. But because neither of that happened means it is a tough loss for B with or without accepting the penalty. Have fun explaining that to the B coach...
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Agreed.
Have fun explaining that to the B coach...
Many coaches (and fans) think extending the period only applies to fouls by the defense anyway. You might not even get much of a complaint in this situation. For instance, this play from a game a couple years ago. Team A trails by 2 with 5 seconds left in the game. A1 runs for a touchdown as time expires. During the run, A55 holds at the B-20. Team B's coach was adamant that they could accept the penalty and end the game. We told him that he was half right. He would most definitely want to accept the penalty so that the TD wouldn't count, but, because of the accepted penalty, Team A would be given an untimed down from the B-30. He had no clue that a foul on the offense could extend the period. In hindsight, the untimed down probably should have been from B-15... ^flag
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A3/G @ B-6. Team A trails 34-31 with :09 remaining in the 4th quarter. Each team has one timeout. A34 takes a hand-off and runs to the B-4 where he fumbles the ball. B35 recovers the fumble at the B-2 and runs to the B-20 where A88 tackles him by the facemask. During B35’s run, B56 blocks A75 low, from the front, in the Team B end zone. Time expires during the down. Ruling?
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Team B has two options, neither very appealing but one more so than the other.
Since Team B got the ball with clean hands, the first option is to offset the fouls and replay 3rd and goal as an untimed down. Probably not gonna happen. The second is to decline the FMM foul and enforce the BBW. Since it is in the end zone, by rule it's a safety. Since this is an accepted live ball foul, there will be an untimed down. Team B must free kick from their own 20 yard line.
Like the other play, it may not be what they want, but it is what it is. Hopefully they just knock it off the tee and fall on it. That would kill it immediately and the game would end since illegal touching is a violation, not a foul.
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Team B has two options, neither very appealing but one more so than the other.
Since Team B got the ball with clean hands, the first option is to offset the fouls and replay 3rd and goal as an untimed down. Probably not gonna happen. The second is to decline the FMM foul and enforce the BBW. Since it is in the end zone, by rule it's a safety. Since this is an accepted live ball foul, there will be an untimed down. Team B must free kick from their own 20 yard line.
Like the other play, it may not be what they want, but it is what it is. Hopefully they just knock it off the tee and fall on it. That would kill it immediately and the game would end since illegal touching is a violation, not a foul.
Yeah I'll agree with that.
3/G @ B-10. Score is A13-B14. Clock reads 0:15 in the 4th qtr. No time-outs remain for either team. A5's FG attempt is blocked and the loose ball is recovered at the B-11 by A77 who runs to the B-2 before being tackled. When A77 hits the ground his helmet comes off. The clock reads 0:02 at the end of the play.
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4th and goal at the B-2. A77 has to leave for one play. No 10 second runoff since the clock stops for a legal kick down. Play clock at 25, game clock on the snap.
Follow up question: Take the helmet part out if it. If this play actually happened, odds are that Team B thinks they just won the game. They're probably not going to know that the clock stops on this play. They're going to think that it should keep running since A77 was tackled in bounds. How lenient would you be with team members coming on to the field? To me this feels like a situation where I would just clear the field, make an announcement and move on. Would anybody here flag B for unsportsmanlike conduct?
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To me this feels like a situation where I would just clear the field, make an announcement and move on. Would anybody here flag B for unsportsmanlike conduct?
Definitely no flags. The spirit of the rule does not apply.
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Definitely no flags. The spirit of the rule does not apply.
Agree. "Oh the band is out on the field!!!!" Same situation I would think.
A 2/10 @ B-20; 0:25 left in game. Team A trails by 2 and is out of timeouts. Home team QB A11 is flushed out of the pocket and is tackled at the B23 near the visiting team sideline, but in bounds. The tackle caused A11's knee brace to be pulled down to his ankle. The R watches the QB attempt to pull the knee brace back into position, but he cannot get it up. A11 then falls to the ground as though injured. The S signals to stop the clock, but the R signals to wind. The R finally relents and stops the clock at 0:12 as attendants come to assist the QB. The visiting head coach has watched the actions of A11 and objects vehemently when the R stops the clock; the visiting head coach is screaming that A11 is cheating. Include clock status it your answer.
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Agree. "Oh the band is out on the field!!!!" Same situation I would think.
A 2/10 @ B-20; 0:25 left in game. Team A trails by 2 and is out of timeouts. Home team QB A11 is flushed out of the pocket and is tackled at the B23 near the visiting team sideline, but in bounds. The tackle caused A11's knee brace to be pulled down to his ankle. The R watches the QB attempt to pull the knee brace back into position, but he cannot get it up. A11 then falls to the ground as though injured. The S signals to stop the clock, but the R signals to wind. The R finally relents and stops the clock at 0:12 as attendants come to assist the QB. The visiting head coach has watched the actions of A11 and objects vehemently when the R stops the clock; the visiting head coach is screaming that A11 is cheating. Include clock status it your answer.
I'll tell the visiting HC to take the cheating aspect up with the governing body, it isn't entirely obvious that A11 is not injured. Injury stops the clock, team B takes the ZAP-10, A11 sits out one play. Game clock 0:02, play clock 25, both start on the ready. Good luck scoring with the backup QB.
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4th/12 at A7. The snap hits blocking back A34's chest who is not aligned in the end zone and rolls along the ground. B67 bats the ball backward from A's 2 yard line. After being batted, the ball hits B54 on A's 4 and rolls into A's end zone. A3 picks up the ball and punts. The punt is blocked and the ball goes out of A's end zone without entering the field of play.
Same scenario only B's bat is forward into A's end zone. A first and 10 at 30, clock on ready?
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If the bat was forward, it would be a foul. The only enforcement spot is the previous spot. It is a scrimmage kick play and does not qualify for PSK. Since B is responsible for it being on the end zone, the result of the play is a touchback. The penalty for batting would only put them at the 17, so Team A will decline the penalty and take the ball at the 20. Clock starts on the snap since there was a legal kick play.
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4th/12 at A7. The snap hits blocking back A34's chest who is not aligned in the end zone and rolls along the ground. B67 bats the ball backward from A's 2 yard line. After being batted, the ball hits B54 on A's 4 and rolls into A's end zone. A3 picks up the ball and punts. The punt is blocked and the ball goes out of A's end zone without entering the field of play.
Say the ball was batted forward instead of backwards by B and A3 never got the punt off and was tackled in his end zone. What is your ruling now?
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Say the ball was batted forward instead of backwards by B and A3 never got the punt off and was tackled in his end zone. What is your ruling now?
A 4/2 @ A17 or A 1/10 @ A20. A will decline the penalty and take the touchback
A K/O A-35. A-2 (not the Kicker) has a foot on the ground at the A-36 when the ball is kicked .The kick is muffed by B1 at the B-4 yard line. A3, in an attempt to recover the ball muffs the ball into and out of team B's End Zone. During the kick B4,B5,B6 come together to form a blocking wedge. Prior to the muff by B1 the 3 B blockers separate and go separate ways.
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A K/O A-35. A-2 (not the Kicker) has a foot on the ground at the A-36 when the ball is kicked .The kick is muffed by B1 at the B-4 yard line. A3, in an attempt to recover the ball muffs the ball into and out of team B's End Zone. During the kick B4,B5,B6 come together to form a blocking wedge. Prior to the muff by B1 the 3 B blockers separate and go separate ways.
Team B's ball, 1/10 @ B-30.
The free kick is still the impetus of the ball going into the end zone, so it is a touchback and the ball belongs to Team B at the 25. Because the result of the play is a touchback, there is no foul for an illegal wedge. The offside on A is enforced from where the subsequent dead ball belongs to Team B which moves the ball to the B-30. Or Team B could have A rekick from the A-30.
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B-8, A-0. A scores a touchdown during which time expires for the second period. On the try, A's pass is intercepted by B84 in the end zone. He returns it 100 yards and crosses the goal line. During the return, B57 punches A48.
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B-8, A-0. A scores a touchdown during which time expires for the second period. On the try, A's pass is intercepted by B84 in the end zone. He returns it 100 yards and crosses the goal line. During the return, B57 punches A48.
Score is cancelled and period ends. Enforce 15 yards from the second half kickoff. It does not matter where the foul happens.
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Also B57 ejected
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I like the answer...any objections? The AR you are looking for is 9-3-3-IX. I didn't know that was in the book until this past weekend when someone showed me. I thought he was crazy for saying that it was a legal block when the block was outside the blocking zone. Then he showed me that. Crow tastes great at 7:00 in the morning.
This was a surprise to me as well. Does it also apply to clipping, then? The exception for blocks in the back during initial line play is worded almost exactly the same as the exception for clipping.
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This was a surprise to me as well. Does it also apply to clipping, then? The exception for blocks in the back during initial line play is worded almost exactly the same as the exception for clipping.
You know I do not know and I am not a reliable source for this answer, but I would assume that it is not. Since clipping is a major foul and blocking in the back is not...I would err on the side of safety. Clipping has to do with the knees and it seems any block against the knees is high priority. You miss those fouls and you hear about it the very next day. Yes, clipping is legal inside the blocking zone (clipping zone for the old vets), but that zone dissolves once the ball leaves that zone. The clipping zone is so small that pretty much after the snap, the ball is out of the zone, the zone is gone and clipping is illegal again. I would love to see the lineman that can pull this off legally in that short amount of time!
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Keep in mind that even within the zone, clipping at or below the knees is still illegal.
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stolen from the national CFO test
After A23 is the first to touch a punt beyond the neutral zone at the B-25, B45 recovers at the B-30. B45 fumbles at the B-35, and while the ball is loose B80 clips at the B-40. A39 recovers and carries the ball across Team B’s goal line.
could, for whatever reason, A accept the penalty? Or is that a decline by rule situation?
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stolen from the national CFO test
After A23 is the first to touch a punt beyond the neutral zone at the B-25, B45 recovers at the B-30. B45 fumbles at the B-35, and while the ball is loose B80 clips at the B-40. A39 recovers and carries the ball across Team B’s goal line.
could, for whatever reason, A accept the penalty? Or is that a decline by rule situation?
Clipping is a personal foul so it is carried over (10-2-5-a-1). Team A can elect either try from B-1.5 or the next kickoff (if any) from A-50.
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stolen from the national CFO test
After A23 is the first to touch a punt beyond the neutral zone at the B-25, B45 recovers at the B-30. B45 fumbles at the B-35, and while the ball is loose B80 clips at the B-40. A39 recovers and carries the ball across Team B’s goal line.
could, for whatever reason, A accept the penalty? Or is that a decline by rule situation?
Clipping is a personal foul so it is carried over (10-2-5-a-1). Team A can elect either try from B-1.5 or the next kickoff (if any) from A-50.
Yep. Go look at 5-2-4 exception. Had a discussion about this one in my study group.
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right... so PF is just as it would be in any other situation..
however, if this was not PF by B during the fumble
could A accept the penalty to avoid a better spot for B's 1/10 then the illegal touch spot by A?
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right... so PF is just as it would be in any other situation..
however, if this was not PF by B during the fumble
could A accept the penalty to avoid a better spot for B's 1/10 then the illegal touch spot by A?
Do you mean the PF is either during the kick, run by B45 or run by A39? In all of these cases it is still a TD and the penalty carries over.
If you mean a non-PF foul by team B during the fumble then team A has the option of enforcing the penalty as a running play foul or declining and forcing team B to take the ball at the spot of illegal touching.
And the cherry on top: non-PF foul by team B during the run by A39: penalty declined by rule, ball belongs to team B at the spot of the illegal touching.
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Do you mean the PF is either during the kick, run by B45 or run by A39? In all of these cases it is still a TD and the penalty carries over.
If you mean a non-PF foul by team B during the fumble then team A has the option of enforcing the penalty as a running play foul or declining and forcing team B to take the ball at the spot of illegal touching.
And the cherry on top: non-PF foul by team B during the run by A39: penalty declined by rule, ball belongs to team B at the spot of the illegal touching.
the cherry on top I knew from another post around here... it's the non-PF during the fumble that I was in doubt if could be enforced as a foul during a running play
thanks Kalle
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1/10 @ B-25.
B37 intercepts a legal forward pass at the B-5 and returns the ball to the B-25, where he is tackled.
During the run, B78 holds in his end zone.
I thought that enforcement would call for safety but reading the penalty statement for holding, it says it will be holding if the foul happens inside A's end zone, which is not the case.
So, taking the penalty, where is it enforced from?
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It's still a safety. The "in Team A's end zone" language is in a paragraph dealing with fouls behind the neutral zone. Your play is not a foul behind the neutral zone and therefore that rule does not apply. The basic spot is the end of the run, the foul was behind the basic spot, the spot of the foul was in the end zone, therefore it's a safety.
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I was going for safety on this one but couldn't find where it says fouls in the end zone are safety besides that statement about foul behind the neutral zone
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Nevermind...
8-5-1-b
AR 6-5-4-I
AR 8-5-1-V
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The penalty statement for holding specifies the team A end zone because if it didn't, the foul would be enforced from the previous spot, which the rules makers didn't want.
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Try from B3. Team A lines up and A77 false starts. After the penalty enforcement and snap, A11's kick is blocked by B42. The ball is recovered by B25 at the B16 where he is downed. B42 was flagged for being in the neutral zone before the snap. Team A elects to accept the penalty and also asks that the ball be placed on the B6 on the left has mark. Ruling?
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Try from B3. Team A lines up and A77 false starts. After the penalty enforcement and snap, A11's kick is blocked by B42. The ball is recovered by B25 at the B16 where he is downed. B42 was flagged for being in the neutral zone before the snap. Team A elects to accept the penalty and also asks that the ball be placed on the B6 on the left has mark. Ruling?
Repeat the try from the left hash, B-6 yard line. 8-3-2-c, especially this year's change.
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4/9 on the A-45. As the punt is coming down at the B-12, it bounces off the shoulder of A25 (no receiver is in the area - no KCI) and then bounces off the hands of B8 at the B-10. A25 recovers the kick in the end zone. During the kick, B44 pulls A52 to the ground. Result of the play?
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4/9 on the A-45. As the punt is coming down at the B-12, it bounces off the shoulder of A25 (no receiver is in the area - no KCI) and then bounces off the hands of B8 at the B-10. A25 recovers the kick in the end zone. During the kick, B44 pulls A52 to the ground. Result of the play?
I've got A 1/10 @ B-45, snap, 25.
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4/9 on the A-45. As the punt is coming down at the B-12, it bounces off the shoulder of A25 (no receiver is in the area - no KCI) and then bounces off the hands of B8 at the B-10. A25 recovers the kick in the end zone. During the kick, B44 pulls A52 to the ground. Result of the play?
Previous spot enforcement, 10 yard penalty, A 1/10 at the B45.
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I think I understand previous spot enforcement here but I don't think I can explain...
Not PSK because B will not put the ball in play next.
Unless you have the illegal touch spot but for that, A would have to decline the penalty, which they wouldn't.
So A accept the penalty, canceling the illegal touching privilege.
Now you have a TD by A play with a foul by B after after COP?
I think I understand why the only spot left is previous spot but I can't explain it. And if I can't explain it, then I don't know it.
please help...
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Let's break this down:
Team A is in legal possession of the ball in the team B end zone, so the result of the play is a touchdown.
By rule 10-2-5-a-2 the penalty is declined by rule, unless enforcement becomes possible by illegal touching.
The foul is not during a team B possession, so IT does not make enforcement possible (A.R.'s 6-3-2-III-IV).
End result is team B's ball, 1/10 @ B-12.
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Play 1
Onside kick attempt from A35. A4's free kick is very high and short. B22 signals for a fair catch and misjudges the ball. The ball goes over his head and hits the ground. A55 muffs the ball on A's 47. The ball is recovered by B85 on A's 43. B22 holds A55 on A's 46 after his signal to keep A55 from recovering the ball.
Play 2
Onside kick from A35. A4's free kick is very high and short. The ball goes over his B22's head and hits the ground. A55 muffs the ball on A's 47. The ball is recovered by B85 on A's 43. B22 holds A55 on A's 46 during the kick to keep A55 from recovering the ball.
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Let's answer these questions in reverse order.
Play 2: It's a foul during a free kick play, so the basic spot is the previous spot. The foul is by the team not in possession, so it's enforced from the previous spot with a rekick if accepted. Team A will more than likely choose to rekick from the A-45 rather than give Team B the ball at the A-43.
Play 1: It would seem as though it should be the same as above, except that the foul was by a player who gave a fair catch signal and did not touch the ball. That is a foul for illegal block/contact. That foul is specifically enforced from the spot of the foul. So Team A will definitely accept the penalty and Team B will have the ball at the B-39. Can this be enforced as in the other play for just the hold? I don't know for sure, but I would say no. While both AR's deal with scrimmage kicks rather than a free kick, AR 6-5-4-II only mentions the 15 yard penalty for the illegal block and not the penalty for illegal use of the hands.
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4/9 on the A-45. As the punt is coming down at the B-12, it bounces off the shoulder of A25 (no receiver is in the area - no KCI) and then bounces off the hands of B8 at the B-10. A25 recovers the kick in the end zone. During the kick, B44 pulls A52 to the ground. Result of the play?
The foul is not during a team B possession, so IT does not make enforcement possible (A.R.'s 6-3-2-III-IV).
Must the foul really be during Team B's running play to be enforceable?
My tentative understanding had been, the foul must happen during any play besides a running play that scores the touchdown. That is, if we have an enforcement spot, then we can use it. The only time we don't have an enforcement spot is if there's no end of the run because it's a touchdown.
Here are six scenarios. The ARs only cover the last two. I had thought the other four were all enforceable penalties, but are they?
A illegally touches B's punt. B recovers the punt but fumbles. A recovers the fumble and runs for a touchdown.
a) B is offside. Enforceable at previous spot?
b) B holds before the kick. Enforceable at previous spot?
c) B runs into the kicker. Enforceable at previous spot?
d) B holds during the kick. Enforceable at previous spot (instead of PSK)?
e) B holds during B's running play. AR 6-3-2-IV. Enforceable at basic spot, B's ball.
f) B holds during A's running play. AR 6-3-1-III. Not enforceable. Illegal touching accepted.
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Play 1: It would seem as though it should be the same as above, except that the foul was by a player who gave a fair catch signal and did not touch the ball. That is a foul for illegal block/contact. That foul is specifically enforced from the spot of the foul. So Team A will definitely accept the penalty and Team B will have the ball at the B-39. Can this be enforced as in the other play for just the hold? I don't know for sure, but I would say no. While both AR's deal with scrimmage kicks rather than a free kick, AR 6-5-4-II only mentions the 15 yard penalty for the illegal block and not the penalty for illegal use of the hands.
I would make an executive decision to characterize this conduct as two kinds of fouls at once, allowing Team A to enforce the penalty according to either. Just like when you have DPI that is also a PF; Team A gets the more advantageous of the enforcements. That principle is explicitly stated in 7-3-9-e. So I would argue the same principle should apply whenever conduct falls afoul of two separate rules.
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Must the foul really be during Team B's running play to be enforceable?
So what are you asking? Could we have enforced this penalty at the PSK spot?
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So what are you asking? Could we have enforced this penalty at the PSK spot?
No, because it doesn't meet the requirements of PSK (Team A would next put the ball into play), so the basic spot reverts to the previous spot. Can we enforce it from there, though?
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My tentative understanding had been, the foul must happen during any play besides a running play that scores the touchdown. That is, if we have an enforcement spot, then we can use it. The only time we don't have an enforcement spot is if there's no end of the run because it's a touchdown.
I think this is actually a better understanding than mine.
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Must the foul really be during Team B's running play to be enforceable?
My tentative understanding had been, the foul must happen during any play besides a running play that scores the touchdown. That is, if we have an enforcement spot, then we can use it. The only time we don't have an enforcement spot is if there's no end of the run because it's a touchdown.
so it's basic 10-2-4-a because we have a foul during a kick and we have no running play that ends in touchdown?
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so it's basic 10-2-4-a because we have a foul during a kick and we have no running play that ends in touchdown?
Assuming Morningrise's interpretation is correct, then no, it is not a 10-2-4 foul as the foul is by team B. As it is not a PSK foul, the only option is to enforce from the previous spot, 10-2-2-4-a.
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that's what you get for reading and writing at 3am...
I meant 10-2-2-4-a - foul during a kick play that's not PSK
thanks Kalle
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I would make an executive decision to characterize this conduct as two kinds of fouls at once, allowing Team A to enforce the penalty according to either. Just like when you have DPI that is also a PF; Team A gets the more advantageous of the enforcements. That principle is explicitly stated in 7-3-9-e. So I would argue the same principle should apply whenever conduct falls afoul of two separate rules.
I would tend to agree. Team B should not avoid a second attempt at an onside kick just because their player made a signal before he held.
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Well, it is a tad bit early...but the 2016 season will approach quicker than you think. Here is the thread that we can post play situations as they come to mind to try understand them more as well as trump others! At any rate, feel free to share as you study up and take quizzes and tests. We shall all benefit from whatever come up here.
A 1/G @ B8. QB A12 surveys the field for an open receiver in his attempt to pass and has difficultly finding one so he rolls out to his left. Trying to get to the pylon he dives at the B3 and reaches the ball out to touch the pylon. Just before the ball can make contact with the pylon, linebacker B35 kicks the pylon away from A12's reach as he makes contact with airborne A12. When B35 contacts A12 at the B .5, A12 loses control of the ball and the play ends OOB. Ruling?
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A 1/G @ B8. QB A12 surveys the field for an open receiver in his attempt to pass and has difficultly finding one so he rolls out to his left. Trying to get to the pylon he dives at the B3 and reaches the ball out to touch the pylon. Just before the ball can make contact with the pylon, linebacker B35 kicks the pylon away from A12's reach as he makes contact with airborne A12. When B35 contacts A12 at the B .5, A12 loses control of the ball and the play ends OOB. Ruling?
A 2/G at whereever the ball crossed the sideline, unless the ball crossed the sideline in the end zone after the fumble, in which case it is B 1/10 @ B-20. 4-2-4-d-exception, 8-2-1-a and 8-6-1-a.
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Here's one and an alternative that came up at a study session this week. (IFAF rules but it's the same in this case I think.)
1st & 10 @ A-32. Quarterback A1 fakes a hand off, rolls to the right and sets up to pass at the A-26 outside the tackle box. As A1 pulls the ball back to pass, B90 hits his arm and the QB's hand goes forward without the ball. The ball flys forward in the air past the neutral zone where it is controlled at the A-34 by linebacker B55 while he is airborne. As B55 lands he loses control and the ball squirts back across the neutral zone. A1 recovers the ball at the A-31 and immediately throws the ball into the ground. The ball hits the ground at the A-32.5. There is no eligible Team A receiver nearby.
Alternative #1. A1 controls the ball at the A-31 while he himself is airborne but before he lands he throws the ball into the ground.
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Assuming the QB's hand never moves forward, the first one is a fumble recovered by A1 with a foul for intentional grounding. The foul has nothing to do with an eligible receiver, but rather that A1 threw the ball directly into the ground after it had already touched the ground as well as not immediately after controlling the snap. Loss of down at the spot of the foul.
The second one is still a fumble, but is a foul for illegal batting if A1 "throws" the ball forward the second time. Until A1 comes down o the ground and completes the recovery, it's still a fumble.
It's important to remember that while A1 is standing and in position to pass it forward toward the neutral zone, any forward movement starts a forward pass, no matter what happens after contact. So the first scenario would just be an incomplete pass once the ball hit the ground after B55 loses control since you said A1 recovered it rather than catching it. If he had caught the pass after B55 lost control, you'd have a foul for an illegal forward pass since that would be the second forward pass of the down.
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But he didn't have the ball in possession anymore.
When a team a player is holding the ball to pass it forward toward the neutral zone, any intentional forward movement of his hand or arm with the ball firmly in his control starts the forward pass. If a team b player contacts the passer or ball after forward movement begins and the ball leaves the passer’s hand, a forward pass is ruled regardless of where the ball strikes the ground or a player (A.R. 2-19-2-I).
So it is a fumble, not a forward pass, as "QB's hand goes forward without the ball".
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I guess I wasn't as clear as I meant to be in my first response. If the passer's hand never moves forward BEFORE CONTACT FROM B90, it is a fumble. Any forward movement BEFORE CONTACT FROM B90 makes it a forward pass.
The second set of scenarios I presented were meant to be a separate discussion from my answers to the original question.
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1st & 10 @ A-32. Quarterback A1 fakes a hand off, rolls to the right and sets up to pass at the A-26 outside the tackle box. As A1 pulls the ball back to pass, B90 hits his arm and the QB's hand goes forward without the ball. The ball flys forward in the air past the neutral zone where it is controlled at the A-34 by linebacker B55 while he is airborne. As B55 lands he loses control and the ball squirts back across the neutral zone. A1 recovers the ball at the A-31 and immediately throws the ball into the ground. The ball hits the ground at the A-32.5. There is no eligible Team A receiver nearby.
Alternative #1. A1 controls the ball at the A-31 while he himself is airborne but before he lands he throws the ball into the ground.
I'm not an NCAA guy - in NFHS this is easier since we don't have to worry about tackle boxes (are we going fishing?) and suchlike... but let me give this a shot anyway 'cause it looks like fun.
First question: Was there a change of possession on this play? It sounds to me like the set-up is intended for the answer to be "no" - despite the fact that this is a fumble and not a pass, I believe the usual catch rules apply, which means that there if the ball pops out as he hits the ground, there is no possession.
Next question: Can the QB make a legal pass AT ALL in this situation? Looks like yes - while the ball has crossed the NZ, the passer's body has not.
Finally: Does the "outside the tackle box" exception apply? By letter or the rule, yes. I believe there was previous discussion about official(?) interpretations of the "player who controls the snap or resulting backwards pass" clause to mean that that player effectively only gets one shot - if it gets knocked out of his hands and he recovers, he can't use that exception anymore. But absent some sort of official guidance like that, then I would say the exception applies and it's not IG.
Result: Incomplete pass. Next down.
Postscript: I assume that the ball landing half a yard past the LOS is intended to be beyond the neutral zone since the ball is a few inches short of half a yard long.
Alternative #1: "Passing the ball is throwing it." No changes here.
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1st & 10 @ A-32. Quarterback A1 fakes a hand off, rolls to the right and sets up to pass at the A-26 outside the tackle box. As A1 pulls the ball back to pass, B90 hits his arm and the QB's hand goes forward without the ball. The ball flys forward in the air past the neutral zone where it is controlled at the A-34 by linebacker B55 while he is airborne. As B55 lands he loses control and the ball squirts back across the neutral zone. A1 recovers the ball at the A-31 and immediately throws the ball into the ground. The ball hits the ground at the A-32.5. There is no eligible Team A receiver nearby.
Alternative #1. A1 controls the ball at the A-31 while he himself is airborne but before he lands he throws the ball into the ground.
In the first part, I've got an empty hand making it a fumble. Since B is airborne, the catch process applies to him and he does not maintain possession keeping the status still a fumble. While A1 was the one to control the snap, he gave up the right to ground it because it has struck the ground and it was not immediately after the snap. My ruling is ING A 2/11 @ A31.
Alternative 1 - I have ING here as well since this grounding was immediately after the snap. A 2/11 @ A31
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Alternative 1 - I have ING here as well since this grounding was immediately after the snap. A 2/11 @ A31
You can't have grounding here because it's still a fumble. A1 was still airborne when he controlled it and then batted it to the ground. All he did was bat (intentionally striking it or intentionally changing its direction with the hand(s) or arm(s)) a fumble. Much like this play (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fstTwI2F0I) was simply a batted forward. Even though the defender "threw" the ball, it would not be an illegal forward pass because the first pass had not ended. And in our play, the status of the ball is still a fumble because nobody has gained possession yet since A1 never came to the ground with it.
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You can't have grounding here because it's still a fumble. A1 was still airborne when he controlled it and then batted it to the ground. All he did was bat (intentionally striking it or intentionally changing its direction with the hand(s) or arm(s)) a fumble. Much like this play (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fstTwI2F0I) was simply a batted forward. Even though the defender "threw" the ball, it would not be an illegal forward pass because the first pass had not ended. And in our play, the status of the ball is still a fumble because nobody has gained possession yet since A1 never came to the ground with it.
Thank goodness for the offseason!
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I'm not sure that we have an illegal forward pass (at the A-31) in the original paragraph. I don't think we can say A1 is trying to conserve time and the "spike" actually does cross the neutral zone. I understand the convention that a spike straight down triggers 7-3-2-f but in this case the forward pass crosses the neutral zone.
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It's true that this situation probably isn't about conserving time, so the "spike" rule doesn't apply, but it doesn't really matter. There's no eligible receiver in the area. And Redding clarified this year that the tackle box exemption only applies to a passer who never loses the ball between controlling the snap and ground in the ball. Since A1 lost the ball and then got it back before passing, he must throw the ball into an area with an eligible receiver.
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The 2015 Interpretations Bulletin #2 - Play 5 is a flea-flicker and the the justification for the ruling is "the spirit and intent of the rule is that he does not give up the ball until he throws the forward pass".
Is fumbling "giving up the ball"? Are we entitled to extend the Bulletin to say that if the QB fumbles and then catches/recovers his own fumble he can't throw the ball away if he gets out of the tackle box?
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It would seem to me that the spirit of the rule mentioned in the bulletin is that the passer only gets the exception if he maintains possession of the ball throughout the down. In my opinion (which obviously isn't worth a whole lot), it doesn't matter whether he passes, hands, fumbles, or even kicks the ball. If he loses possession of the ball, he doesn't get the exception.
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I was thinking about this last night. It's reasonably easy to imagine a trivial fumble: e.g.
As QB A1 is scrambling to his right, the defensive end hits his elbow. A1 momentarily looses control of the ball and it pops up in front of his face but he regains control and continues scrambling and after getting out of the tackle box throws the ball away out of bounds across the NZ (extended).
In this case I would suggest (not that my opinion is worth much!) that he would get the exception.
I guess it comes down to does "give up the ball" include fumbling? The list of other actions (that you mentioned) from the fumble definition (2-11-1): "passing", "kicking" or "successful handing" all seem to me to be actively giving up the ball. I'm not so sure about "fumbling".
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A 4/12 at the A-49. Team A’s punt is untouched beyond the neutral zone when A32 reaches across the goal line and bats the ball back into the field of play where it goes out of bounds at the B4. During the kick, B64 blocks A21 in the back at the B-6. After the play, A21 takes off his helmet and yells at the calling official unaware that the foul was called. Ruling?
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B: 1/10 B-17 (snap-25) & USC for A21.
No illegal touching (which would spot the ball at B-20) because of the foul.
PSK enforcement, which makes the succeeding spot B-2 (half the distance) + dead ball foul: 15 yards.
Snap and 25 because of the kick.
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I was thinking about this last night. It's reasonably easy to imagine a trivial fumble: e.g.
As QB A1 is scrambling to his right, the defensive end hits his elbow. A1 momentarily looses control of the ball and it pops up in front of his face but he regains control and continues scrambling and after getting out of the tackle box throws the ball away out of bounds across the NZ (extended).
In this case I would suggest (not that my opinion is worth much!) that he would get the exception.
I guess it comes down to does "give up the ball" include fumbling? The list of other actions (that you mentioned) from the fumble definition (2-11-1): "passing", "kicking" or "successful handing" all seem to me to be actively giving up the ball. I'm not so sure about "fumbling".
That's a fair point. And I would agree that the spirit of the rule would suggest he still get the exception in your case.
PSK enforcement, which makes the succeeding spot B-2 (half the distance)
It is PSK, but not from the B-4. Whenever you have batting by A in Team B's end zone on a scrimmage kick, the PSK spot is the B-20. (Rule 2-25-11 Special Case 2) Since the spot of the foul (b-6) is behind the basic spot, you would go half the distance to the B-3 and then out to the B-18 for A's UNS.
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It is PSK, but not from the B-4. Whenever you have batting by A in Team B's end zone on a scrimmage kick, the PSK spot is the B-20. (Rule 2-25-11 Special Case 2) Since the spot of the foul (b-6) is behind the basic spot, you would go half the distance to the B-3 and then out to the B-18 for A's UNS.
A.R. 6-3-11-IV is more or less this exact play.
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Ok, but Rule Rule 2-25-11 refers to Rule 6-3-11, which refers to Rule 6-3-2. And Rule 6-2-2-b reads: "This privilege is canceled if there is an accepted penalty for a live-ball foul by either team."
Of course, in retrospect, if we need a PSK spot, there's always a foul, so it would be logical to assume the exception doesn't apply.
Could have been written more clearly in Rule 6-3-11, in my opinion.
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If you're going to say that the 6-3-11 doesn't apply anymore because there's another foul, then you have to have another flag down for illegal batting the ball in the end zone. That's what 6-3-11 does, protects A from illegal batting fouls when a scrimmage kick is behind Team B's goal line. Obviously that's not what's going to happen, though. It's not a matter of whether or not the illegal touching still applies, 2-25-11 just specifies the PSK spot. 6-3-11 is still in effect, not because we still have illegal touching, but because we still have a special case of batting in the end zone. Like Kalle said, AR 6-3-11-IV is almost exactly this play. The difference is the foul occurs beyond the basic spot so it is penalized from the PSK spot instead of the spot of the foul.
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Ok, but Rule Rule 2-25-11 refers to Rule 6-3-11, which refers to Rule 6-3-2. And Rule 6-2-2-b reads: "This privilege is canceled if there is an accepted penalty for a live-ball foul by either team."
Of course, in retrospect, if we need a PSK spot, there's always a foul, so it would be logical to assume the exception doesn't apply.
Could have been written more clearly in Rule 6-3-11, in my opinion.
Agree. Very confusing, but this is the only case I can think of where the illegal touch can still be applied to a foul that is accepted. But to see the converse of it, look at it this way (AR 6-3-11-V):
A 4/12 at the A-49. Team A’s punt is untouched beyond the neutral zone when A32 reaches across the goal line and bats the ball back into the field of play where it goes out of bounds at the B4. During the kick, A71 clips B35 at the B40. Ruling?
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So there the privillege is cancelled...
I understand Rule 2-25-11-b-2 is not really about the privillege, but a rule on its own. But I fail to see the logic.
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But I fail to see the logic.
There often isn't any...
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The logic I see in it is that if it wasn't this way, A would benefit by breaking the rules. If the PSK spot was where the ball went out of bounds, A just gained 16 yards by illegally touching the kick and making it go out of bounds at the B-4 instead of into the end zone for a touchback that would come out to the B-20.
To me, the lack of logic is when it's a foul against A. Since fouls by A are enforced from where the dead ball belongs to Team B instead of the PSK spot, A can gain an advantage by batting the ball. If A fouls during a punt and the ball result is a touch back, the foul will be enforced from the 20. If A fouls and then breaks the rules again by illegally touching the kick and bats it out of the end zone and it goes out of bounds at the B-2, the penalty would be enforced from the B-2 if accepted. Realistically, B will decline the penalty and take the illegal touching and get the ball at the B-20. Either way, by breaking the rules a second time A has gained an advantage by either moving the enforcement spot or forcing B to decline the penalty.
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2. A 3/5 at the B-18. QB A15 throws a pass toward team B's EZ. B38 jumps in the air and secures firm control of the pass near the goal-line. B38 lands inside the B-1 and in one motion falls to the ground in the EZ. Just after QB A15 releases the pass, B99 who is rushing unabated, hits A15 who has both feet on the ground, forcibly in the knees without wrapping him up. A15 is injured on the play. Clock?
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Momentum applies to the interception since it happened at the B-1 and B38 fell into the end zone (i.e. not on his own power). Since there is a change of possession, RPS will be enforced half the distance from the previous spot to the B-9 where A will have 1st and goal. Injuries are not the same as helmets coming off, so A15 still has to leave the game and cannot be bought back with a timeout. No major clock stoppers here, so clock will be on the ready. Penalty enforcement as well as injury to A puts the play clock at 25.
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Momentum applies to the interception since it happened at the B-1 and B38 fell into the end zone (i.e. not on his own power). Since there is a change of possession, RPS will be enforced half the distance from the previous spot to the B-9 where A will have 1st and goal. Injuries are not the same as helmets coming off, so A15 still has to leave the game and cannot be bought back with a timeout. No major clock stoppers here, so clock will be on the ready. Penalty enforcement as well as injury to A puts the play clock at 25.
Agree on the literal sense. What about philosophy? How do we work this and what is the ruling when looking at it philosophy wise since that's the way we work it on the field?
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I'm not sure what you mean. The only thing that could be debated in my mind would be the philosophy of momentum vs touchback, but it doesn't matter in this play since we had RPS. If there wasn't a foul, I'm giving the interceptor a bit of leeway. If it's close or there's any doubt, I'm putting it in the end zone for a touchback rather than at or inside the 1. And Ray Charles up in the last row of the third deck better be able to tell that momentum didn't take the interceptor into the ends one for me to have a safety here.
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My question would be that if you are going to give the defender leeway if there was no foul, why would you do differently if there is a foul? In this particular play the only thing that would change is the clock status. Calling the result of the play a TB would start the clock on the snap rather than the ready. Team A will obviously be accepting the penalty no matter what is called regarding momentum. In reality, on the field, the official ruling on the momentum will probably have no idea a foul has been called. He will have to rule based on what he sees without regard to any possible result of penalty administration. Personally I think, as described, the play should be ruled a TB anyway as the defender did not complete all the elements of a catch until he fell into the end zone and maintained control of the ball.
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My question would be that if you are going to give the defender leeway if there was no foul, why would you do differently if there is a foul? In this particular play the only thing that would change is the clock status. Calling the result of the play a TB would start the clock on the snap rather than the ready. Team A will obviously be accepting the penalty no matter what is called regarding momentum. In reality, on the field, the official ruling on the momentum will probably have no idea a foul has been called. He will have to rule based on what he sees without regard to any possible result of penalty administration. Personally I think, as described, the play should be ruled a TB anyway as the defender did not complete all the elements of a catch until he fell into the end zone and maintained control of the ball.
Which is what I was getting at. On page 28 of the CCA manual, it talks about momentum similar to this play. Per the manual, this should be ruled a touchback which makes the clock start on the snap. Like I said earlier, I agree to the literal rule that the ball should go back to the spot of possession by B, but by philosophy this is a touchback. This can become critical if this is late in the game (e.g. :03 or less on the clock) and A needs to score to tie.
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Personally I think, as described, the play should be ruled a TB anyway as the defender did not complete all the elements of a catch until he fell into the end zone and maintained control of the ball.
When-and-where a catch happens is not always the same as when-and-where we finally determine that a catch has happened.
In most action scenarios, we know this already. Suppose a player jumps for a ball in the end zone, grabs it, touches one foot inbounds, brings the foot back into the air, and crashes to the ground out of bounds next to the photographer. The field judge observes that he keeps control of the ball as he lands next to a zoom lens. That is where the player Completes The Process. That is the point in time at which the field judge rules that a catch has occurred. However, the catch did not occur there, out of bounds. It occurred earlier, and inbounds, because that's where the player's foot touched down. We don't wave off the touchdown just because he Completed The Process out of bounds.
Likewise, just because the intercepting player in our momentum scenario doesn't Complete The Process until the end zone, that doesn't mean the spot of the catch was there. It's back in the field of play, where the ball was when his first foot touched down.
EDIT: I know the manual says to make it a touchback when it's close. Just keep in mind it's not always close. The same kind of catch could happen at, say, the B-4.
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Likewise, just because the intercepting player in our momentum scenario doesn't Complete The Process until the end zone, that doesn't mean the spot of the catch was there. It's back in the field of play, where the ball was when his first foot touched down.
Does forward progress apply to a player not held by an opponent?
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A 2/20 at the A-40. QB A1 is under pressure in the pocket and attempts to throw a pass toward eligible A80, who is being held by B3 at the B-35. During his pass attempt, A4 is hit by B99 and the ball comes loose. The Referee rules fumble and the ball is recovered by Team A at the B-45. After the play the Referee turns on his microphone and announces "there is no foul for intentional grounding because the ball was fumbled and recovered by the offense". Ruling? Reviewable? Clock status?
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Defensive Holding, A 2/10 at the 50.
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If replay overturns the call on the field and says that it was in fact a pass, replay can "add" the foul for IG. Offsetting fouls, replay 2nd and 20 at the A-40. Game clock on the snap, play clock at 25. The Referee's announcement is key to letting replay add the foul though. If there's no announcement, replay can't touch the grounding aspect.
If replay confirms or lets stand the call of fumble, then defensive holding, 2nd and 10 at the 50. Game clock on the RFP, play clock at 25.
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If replay overturns the call on the field and says that it was in fact a pass, replay can "add" the foul for IG. Offsetting fouls, replay 2nd and 20 at the A-40. Game clock on the snap, play clock at 25.
Where I am, if the QB starts a pass attempt and is then hit, we cannot call intentional grounding and must assume he was attempting to throw the ball to a reciever, since we can't say for sure where he would have thrown it without the contact.
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This is the general philosophy for all of NCAA as well, but then there's Instant Replay Case Play 70. It says that replay can in fact make it grounding if the Referee makes an announcement saying that the reason there isn't a foul is because it was a fumble. If the Referee does not make that announcement (as in Case Play 72), replay cannot add the foul.
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Replay is not adding the ING foul, all that replay is doing is saying if it was a fumble or a pass.
The reason that the ING foul comes into play is the R by making the announcement is saying that the reason that there is not a ING foul is that the ball was fumbled.
If replay then comes in and says that it was a pass, the foul comes back on and is credited to the R
If replay says its a fumble there is no foul
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A power 5 supervisor this weekend said a pass/fumble when passer is hit depends on when he was hit. Prior to passer initiating the pass, it's on the passer. After the passer has started his pass motion, it's on the defender (as far as int grounding is concerned).
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About that defensive holding: the penalty for Rule 9-3-4-c is "10 or 15 yards".
When is it 15 yards?
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Based on the signal choices given, they seem to be including facemask fouls as a way of illegally using the hands. While accurate, it is a bit confusing since facemask fouls are also included in the personal foul section.
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I guess it is a leftover from the time when there was a 5-yard FM penalty.
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Play: 4th and 10 on Team A's 30 yard line. Team A punt. The ball rolls to a halt on Team B's 42 yard line when A23 runs up to the ball and touches it on the ground. A few seconds later – as A23 is walking away – B81 runs to the ball, picks it up and runs into his own end zone. Believing he has scored a Touchdown, B81 spikes the ball. The ball goes out of the back of team B's end zone. Ruling?
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Play: 4th and 10 on Team A's 30 yard line. Team A punt. The ball rolls to a halt on Team B's 42 yard line when A23 runs up to the ball and touches it on the ground. A few seconds later – as A23 is walking away – B81 runs to the ball, picks it up and runs into his own end zone. Believing he has scored a Touchdown, B81 spikes the ball. The ball goes out of the back of team B's end zone. Ruling?
As the covering official judged that B81 was attempting to reach the ball at rest before it became dead (based on the fact that there were no hard whistles during the apparent advance by B81), this is a TD. Team A has the option of enforcing the UNS penalty either on the try or the succeeding kickoff, if there is one.
If other officials convince the covering official to change his mind based on their opinion on the ball being dead before recovered by B81, it is 1st and 10 for team B at B-27 as the 15 yard UNS penalty is enforced even if the actions leading to it are ignored by rule.
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B81 advanced to his OWN end zone...
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B81 advanced to his OWN end zone...
Missed that part...
Well, then it is a safety either due to an illegal incomplete forward pass or a backward pass out of bounds. No UNS penalty.
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Missed that part...
Well, then it is a safety either due to an illegal incomplete forward pass or a backward pass out of bounds. No UNS penalty.
Doesn't Team A's touch come into play at all?
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Doesn't Team A's touch come into play at all?
It shows that our season ended in September... obviously it does. If the pass is backwards out of bounds, then team B can take the ball at the illegal touching spot, 1st and 10. If the pass is forward (unlikely based on the description), it is a safety due to the penalty.
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As a spike isn't defined at all...
Is a spike only after the play subject to 9-2-2-b?
Prior to that it's a pass attempt even if it's illegal to throw on the down? Views?
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As a spike isn't defined at all...
Is a spike only after the play subject to 9-2-2-b?
Prior to that it's a pass attempt even if it's illegal to throw on the down? Views?
Spiking is a special case of throwing the ball (directly to the ground) and any throwing of the ball while it is live is passing (2-19-1, 3-2-5). 9-2-2-b is for dead ball actions only ("after a score or any other play").
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A 1/10 at the B-35. A80 runs a go route up the sideline. As the ball is in flight, A80 steps out of bounds at the B-5 and jumps from out of bounds for the ball. B7 tips the ball in flight, which is caught by A80 who lands inbounds at the B-2 and dives for the pylon. He touches the pylon with his left hand as the ball crosses out of bounds over the ½ yard line. Ruling?
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From my reading of the situation, A80 controls the ball while still airborne after his leap from out of bounds. Is that what you mean? If so, it's incomplete as soon as A80 touches it. Even though B7 touches it to make A80 eligible again, A80 is still an out of bounds player until he touches the ground in bounds. Since he touches a loose ball while he is an out of bounds player, the pass is incomplete. This ruling is the same whether B7 touches the pass or not because A80 never returned in bounds and illegal touching requires the receiver to not only go out of bounds, but also come back in bounds before touching the pass for it to be a foul.
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Incomplete pass. 2/10 at B35
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Since a sliding player is now defenseless, would this now be targeting? This was the only play I could recall off the top of my head. Also, if the answer to the previous question is yes, under the new rules, is this a play replay could create a foul for if its not called on the field?
(https://usatthebiglead.files.wordpress.com/2015/10/jake-ruddock-hit-to-the-neck-against-minnesota-1.gif?w=1000)
At full speed on the field, it'll probably be called, but not sure whether or not I'd overturn it depending on the angles we had.
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I say no TGT, looks more like a PF UNR to me
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I say no TGT, looks more like a PF UNR to me
Do you not see this a forcible hit to the head/neck area? Is the player defenceless?
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I'd like to see a field-level angle to see if the contact was a wrapup gone bad or a forcible blow to the head - not sure from this angle. And I dunno if this rises to the level of 'egregious' to have replay initiate, but just based on the limited info from this high center angle, I have no problem upholding a TGT call if that's what's made on the field.
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IMO this is an attempt at a wrap-up tackle as the defender commits to the tackle at virtually the same time as the runner goes into his slide. Defender tries to keep his head out of the way and has his arms in a location that would be a wrap around the waist if the runner did not slide at the same time the reach for the tackle was made. With lots of looks I've got nothing, but I'll concede that in real time this looks ugly.
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A 3/7 at the B-16. QB A8 throws a pass toward A83 deep in Team B’s end zone. B24 steps in front of A83 and intercepts the pass. During B24’s attempt to advance the ball out of the end zone, A66 clips B28 in the end zone. B24 then fumbles the ball out of the end zone and into the field of play, where it is recovered by A50 at the B-6. Ruling?
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Interesting foul. As team A fouled during B's advance, B can have the penalty enforced and potentially keep the ball. Result of the play is not a touchback, so rule 10.2.2.d.2.c applies. 1st and 10 for team B at B-15. Don't bother asking for the option unless time expired on a half and team B leads.
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Since a sliding player is now defenseless, would this now be targeting? This was the only play I could recall off the top of my head. Also, if the answer to the previous question is yes, under the new rules, is this a play replay could create a foul for if its not called on the field?
(https://usatthebiglead.files.wordpress.com/2015/10/jake-ruddock-hit-to-the-neck-against-minnesota-1.gif?w=1000)
At full speed on the field, it'll probably be called, but not sure whether or not I'd overturn it depending on the angles we had.
I would say that this is a TGT foul. Error on the side of safety and give the QB the benefit of the doubt on the timing of the slide.
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The body of the LB goes across and takes the helmet off. No way it is TGT. With the new rule PF only
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Looks very incidental to me, no?
But if not TGT, which PF would you call then?
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This angle may not be the best to view the contact by 99. Other TV angles show that the helmet was the first point of contact, it was forcible, and would have to be TGT or nothing. Last year no foul, This year TGT.
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What's understood by "forcible"? Do they mean "more than a normal tackle would warrant"? Or just "with force", as you would expect football players to play every down?
More importantly: "No player shall target and make forcible contact to the head or neck area of a defenseless opponent [...]". Did he mean to go for the head? If not, the "targetting" aspect is not there, so it's not TGT. Correct?
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I will do my best to offer my understanding. I am not an English major by any means.
Forcible= Significant contact. Webster uses words like physical force or violence. Also included is Powerful.
As for the concept of trying to understand a player's intent I don't think I can do that. If forcible or significant contact to the head and neck of a defenseless player occurs it's a foul regardless of intent. I get what the notes say about "Taking aim... that goes beyond a normal tackle." but I am not good enough to try and interpret the tackler's actions at full speed. Also the directive from above is to call it and get the head hits out of the game.
Great play for discussion
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I honestly don't think there was any ill intent and that this was a wrap up tackle gone wrong. Now that didn't stop many of my fellow Michigan Men from squawking that this should have been targeting, but I would say as to the question of intent above, that the word "target" means just that: to take aim at something for attack according to dictionary.com.
I guess my question is why the onus is completely on the defender to avoid the head or neck area. If QB#15 hadn't slid, he would have been tackled from behind there and we wouldn't be having this discussion. I can't help but wonder how many players are being coached to move their head specifically to draw a targeting foul since the hitee is absolved of any responsibility for avoiding contact.
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I can't help but wonder how many players are being coached to move their head specifically to draw a targeting foul...
You can't be serious.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekQ_Ja02gTY
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You can't be serious.
Well we did add a runoff because players were faking injuries.
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Well we did add a runoff because players were faking injuries.
Now I know you're not serious. You can't stay on one subject without drawing something entirely unrelated into the discussion. What does "faking an injury" have to do with "coaching players to move their head specifically to draw a targeting foul? ???
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We need a troll emoji!!!!
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We need a troll emoji!!!!
cRaZy
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I can't help but wonder how many players are being coached to move their head specifically to draw a targeting foul since the hitee is absolved of any responsibility for avoiding contact.
What other strange and fanciful fantasies do you find your compelled to wonder about?
Never mind.
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As a Michigan Man, I have learned to be weary of anyone who uses the term "Michigan Man" non-ironically. ;)
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The body of the LB goes across and takes the helmet off. No way it is TGT. With the new rule PF only
Which new rule is this? Is it the intent portion for replay or something else?
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Which new rule is this?
http://www.refstripes.com/forum/index.php?topic=12586.0
Open the PDF and read item 5.
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A sliding ball carrier being defenseless doesn't mean it's a PF to hit him now, it just means you could have targeting. If it wasn't a PF last year, and it's not targeting, it's not a PF this year either. That would be like saying its a PF to hit a receiver in the process of making a catch just because he's defenseless. Obviously that's not a foul, so why would this be a foul?
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I wouldn't be surprised if we get guidance / philosophy similar to hits near the sideline. On sideline hits, the ball carrier must have a foot down in the white or clearly giving himself up heading OOB for a PF UNR or late hit foul.
In the sliding QB play here, no TGT IMO, and the lateness of the slide puts the ball carrier at risk of receiving a legal hit, which I think we have here. If that player started his slide even a second earlier, that would give the defender enough time and distance to recognize and avoid contact. If he didn't, then we have a PF late hit / piling on, same as always.
Regarding the helmet coming off, we've all seen wrap up tackles on RBs or WRs where a helmet comes off and there was no FMM. It does happen, and this is still a contact sport. If player protection is the goal for the sliding ball carrier, coach the players to get down earlier.
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I wouldn't be surprised if we get guidance / philosophy similar to hits near the sideline. On sideline hits, the ball carrier must have a foot down in the white or clearly giving himself up heading OOB for a PF UNR or late hit foul.
In the sliding QB play here, no TGT IMO, and the lateness of the slide puts the ball carrier at risk of receiving a legal hit, which I think we have here. If that player started his slide even a second earlier, that would give the defender enough time and distance to recognize and avoid contact. If he didn't, then we have a PF late hit / piling on, same as always.
Regarding the helmet coming off, we've all seen wrap up tackles on RBs or WRs where a helmet comes off and there was no FMM. It does happen, and this is still a contact sport. If player protection is the goal for the sliding ball carrier, coach the players to get down earlier.
Agree. No TGT here. Defender commits to the tackle when the QB decided to slide changing his strike zone.
First possession of the first overtime, A 4/5 at the B-20. Team A has 5 men in the backfield at the snap. QB A9 throws a pass towards A88 at the B-5. B35 jumps the route and intercepts the pass. In an attempt to clear a path for B35 to maximize the return, B88 blocks A80 in the back. B35 starts high stepping and lifts the ball above his head at the 50 but drops the ball. A20 picks up the ball and returns it for an apparent touchdown.
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A's score is canceled since they fouled during the down. The fouls cancel since B got the ball with clean hands. It'll be Team B's ball 1st and 10 from the 25 to start the second possession series of the overtime. B35 is still charged with his UNS. If it's his second, he's gone.
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A's score is canceled since they fouled during the down. The fouls cancel since B got the ball with clean hands. It'll be Team B's ball 1st and 10 from the 25 to start the second possession series of the overtime. B35 is still charged with his UNS. If it's his second, he's gone.
Does rule 3-1-3-g-1-exception apply to the UNS distance penalty?
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I say no. This is not a case of the UNS being declined, it is being canceled.
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3/10 @ A2. Team A leads 24-21 with 5 seconds remaining in the game. QB A2 takes the snap and runs out the back of the end zone as time expires. During A2's run, A72 clips B52 in the end zone. Ruling?
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Result of the play is a safety, but that is not enough for team B, so we need to figure out what happens with the foul. Foul by team A in their own end zone during a running play results also in a safety. So, by taking the penalty, team B gets two points and team A is forced to kick off from A-20.
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Result of the play is a safety, but that is not enough for team B, so we need to figure out what happens with the foul. Foul by team A in their own end zone during a running play results also in a safety. So, by taking the penalty, team B gets two points and team A is forced to kick off from A-20.
If you're the Team A coach, how would you handle this kickoff?
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Tell my kicker to nudge it off the tee and fall on it immediately. By rule the kicker cannot be offside, so maybe even have another player behind the tee and have the kicker start from beyond the restraining line and tap it back to him. Either way, all Team A has to do is put the ball in play and not foul and the game is over. Illegal touching is a violation, not a foul, so catching/recovering the kick illegally will not force another untimed down.
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Result of the play is a safety, but that is not enough for team B, so we need to figure out what happens with the foul. Foul by team A in their own end zone during a running play results also in a safety. So, by taking the penalty, team B gets two points and team A is forced to kick off from A-20.
Does 10-2-5-a-1 apply here?
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Team A trails 28-27 with :05 remaining in the game. Team A is attempting the PAT and the kick is blocked and returned by Team B. Team B is flagged for holding during the return. Regardless of whether the Team B runner scores or not, the PAT is no good because of the flag and we move on, correct?
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Does 10-2-5-a-1 apply here?
No. 10-2-5-a only applies to downs that end in a touchdown. This down ends in a safety. Just like a live ball foul on a field goal, you either take the play or the penalty, not both.
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Team A trails 28-27 with :05 remaining in the game. Team A is attempting the PAT and the kick is blocked and returned by Team B. Team B is flagged for holding during the return. Regardless of whether the Team B runner scores or not, the PAT is no good because of the flag and we move on, correct?
Correct. The penalty for the hold is declined by rule since it was after a change of possession and B got the ball with clean hands. B's score is canceled since they foiled during the down. The try is over and we go to the kickoff.
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Tell my kicker to nudge it off the tee and fall on it immediately. By rule the kicker cannot be offside, so maybe even have another player behind the tee and have the kicker start from beyond the restraining line and tap it back to him. Either way, all Team A has to do is put the ball in play and not foul and the game is over. Illegal touching is a violation, not a foul, so catching/recovering the kick illegally will not force another untimed down.
Wanna bet how many teams in real life would do this instead of executing a normal deep kickoff? :)
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No. 10-2-5-a only applies to downs that end in a touchdown. This down ends in a safety. Just like a live ball foul on a field goal, you either take the play or the penalty, not both.
Bingo!
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4th and 4 for Team A at the A25. A40 punts, and B82 avoids the punt as the ball hits the ground and rolls. Seeing the ball's location near him, A20 shoves B15, causing B15 to touch the ball, at which point A1 recovers the ball.
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4th and 4 for Team A at the A25. A40 punts, and B82 avoids the punt as the ball hits the ground and rolls. Seeing the ball's location near him, A20 shoves B15, causing B15 to touch the ball, at which point A1 recovers the ball.
B15's touch is the result of the block by A20, therefore forced touching (rule ref. 2.11.4.c) and the play continues as if there was no B touch (forced touching is ignored). A1's subsequent "recovery" is therefore an illegal touching and the ball belongs to team B at the illegal touching spot 1st and 10.
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Houston play of the day:
3rd/goal for Team A from the Team B 8-yard line. A24 takes a handoff in the backfield from QB A10 and advances to the Team B 2-yard line, where he is contacted by B48 and fumbles the ball. The ball flies into the Team B end zone and is rolling in the end zone when B27 bats the ball out of the back of the end zone (no attempt to recover it) just before A88 dives in an attempt to recover the ball. Ruling including clock status?
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Okay I'll take a crack at this...
Impetus for the ball in the EZ is the fumble by A. Foul for batting in the end zone against B. Result of the play is a Touchback. Enforce 10 yards from the 20. 1st and 10 for B from the B-10. Game Clock - Snap. Play Clock - 25 seconds on the hack.
I'm fairly confident up to the enforcement. But that's one of the things I'm working on studying most right now.
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B can't keep the ball because they didn't get it before fouling. This is a foul during a running play by the team not in possession. Enforce half the distance from the basic spot which is the spot of the fumble since that's where the run ended. It will be 3rd and goal from the 1. Play clock at 25, game clock on the snap because of the touchback.
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The question here is when does B gain possession of the ball... I believe (and this is where I might be wrong) that it's B's ball only when the ball becomes dead. Since the foul then occurred prior to B gaining possession, they did not gain possession with clean hands.
A would enforce the illegal batting from the previous spot (end of the run when the ball became loose), half the distance. It's A's ball, replay 3rd from B1. Clock starts on Ready, since it was enforced from the end of a running play.
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For those who wonder if IFAF rules are any different from NCAA rules, here is a difference. In IFAF the game clock starts on the ready, as IFAF has amended rule 3-3-2-d-1 to be in line with 3-3-2-d-3.
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From another discussion a few rows down:
Free kick @ A-35. Team A trails with 0:09 remaining. A88 muffs the onside kick attempt at the A-46 a) while inbounds, b) while standing on the sideline. The ball bounces out of bounds.
From a preseason scrimmage the other day:
Team B attempts to substitute. Team A sees this, rushes to the line, and snaps the ball without all players getting set. An entering Team B substitute was still in Team A's backfield at the snap.
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"From a preseason scrimmage the other day:
Team B attempts to substitute. Team A sees this, rushes to the line, and snaps the ball without all players getting set. An entering Team B substitute was still in Team A's backfield at the snap."
False Start Team A. They need to be set for at least one second regardless of what B is doing.
If they are set, Offsides Team B.
Free kick @ A-35. Team A trails with 0:09 remaining. A88 muffs the onside kick attempt at the A-46 a) while inbounds, b) while standing on the sideline. The ball bounces out of bounds.
If I read this one correctly:
Team A = Kicking team. In both cases we have a kick out of bounds because Team B never touched the ball.
We dont have illegal touching because the ball went 11 yards (A35 -> A46).
Team B has several options:
a) Penalize Team A 5 yards and re-kick.
b) Team B can take the ball 30 yards from the Team A restraining line (B 35)
c) 5 yards from the out of bounds spot and Team B keeps the ball.
yeah? :)
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From another discussion a few rows down:
Free kick @ A-35. Team A trails with 0:09 remaining. A88 muffs the onside kick attempt at the A-46 a) while inbounds, b) while standing on the sideline. The ball bounces out of bounds.
From a preseason scrimmage the other day:
Team B attempts to substitute. Team A sees this, rushes to the line, and snaps the ball without all players getting set. An entering Team B substitute was still in Team A's backfield at the snap.
For the first scenario:
a) B 1/10 @ A46
b) KOB. B 1/10 @ A41
For the second scenario:
FST. B is the only one that subbed so no matchup provided. A never gets set so we shut it down. Since FST is a dead ball foul, no DOF.
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For the first scenario:
a) B 1/10 @ A46
b) KOB. B 1/10 @ A41
Both are free kicks out of bounds untouched by team B, right? So team B has the full set of options in both cases and most likely will choose the five yard penalty added to the OOB spot. Now, in a), does the foul cause the clock to stop?
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Agreed. False start on A, no foul by B.
On the kickoff play, both of these are fouls for a fee kick out of bounds. In a, the clock starts on the touching by Team A because it is a legal touch and stops when the ball touches out of bounds. This would trigger a 10 second runoff since it was a foul before a change of team possession that caused the clock to stop and there was less than 1 minute left in the half. The game is over, Team B wins. In situation b, there is no runoff because the clock never started since the Team A player was not in bounds when he touched the kick. The ball is dead immediately upon being picked by Team A. Team B's ball at the A-41, 1st and 10 still with 9 seconds on the clock.
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Both are free kicks out of bounds untouched by team B, right? So team B has the full set of options in both cases and most likely will choose the five yard penalty added to the OOB spot. Now, in a), does the foul cause the clock to stop?
Yep. Not paying attention. A touched it when I was thinking B the entire time. KOB in both situations.
This foul does not constitute a 10 sec runoff. How did A gain an advantage by touching the ball causing the clock to stop then letting it go out of bounds?
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For those who wonder if IFAF rules are any different from NCAA rules, here is a difference. In IFAF the game clock starts on the ready, as IFAF has amended rule 3-3-2-d-1 to be in line with 3-3-2-d-3.
which rulebook is different, Kalle? I have the 2015, which is the one I can download on IFAF website, and it is exactly as NCAA
3-3-2-d-1 - touchback
3-3-2-d-3 - Team B is awarded a first down and will next snap the ball
Is there an updated IFAF rulebook that I can't find?
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This situation applies to both NFHS and NCAA rules (Didn't want to start a whole new thread)
Team A trails 15-10, and has the ball 4th and goal from B7 with 2 seconds on the clock. Team A scores a touchdown and the clock reads zero, the score obviously now 16-15 with Team A as the apparent winner. After the covering official signals a touchdown, both the Team A bench rush the field in celebration, and the home crowd rushes the field to celebrate the victory. Irrespective of whether or not the try is required by rule, Team B wants the penalty enforced and the try attempted. Do we have UNS against the bench AND a UNS against the crowd, with the PAT at the 32, or just one big UNS against Team A in general and the PAT at the 17?
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Is there an updated IFAF rulebook that I can't find?
Go to the IAFOA website at www.myiafoa.org and you can find both the 2016 rule book and the rule change document with reasons for the changes.
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Team A trails 15-10, and has the ball 4th and goal from B7 with 2 seconds on the clock. Team A scores a touchdown and the clock reads zero, the score obviously now 16-15 with Team A as the apparent winner. After the covering official signals a touchdown, both the Team A bench rush the field in celebration, and the home crowd rushes the field to celebrate the victory. Irrespective of whether or not the try is required by rule, Team B wants the penalty enforced and the try attempted. Do we have UNS against the bench AND a UNS against the crowd, with the PAT at the 32, or just one big UNS against Team A in general and the PAT at the 17?
Well, if the rule set used in the game mandates that the try is not attempted if the scoring team is ahead in score, the request by team B is immaterial. Game over, head to the locker room.
In NCAA, the try must be attempted as team B can score and thus is still able to either tie or win the game. The actions by the crowd are not obviously unfair so there is only the foul against the team celebration on the field. Enforce 15 yards, PAT from B-17.
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In NCAA, the try must be attempted as team B can score and thus is still able to either tie or win the game. The actions by the crowd are not obviously unfair so there is only the foul against the team celebration on the field. Enforce 15 yards, PAT from B-17.
If they're smart, A will just take a knee on the try, but yes they have to attempt it under NCAA rules in case there's some Miracle at the Meadowlands type activity that occurs.
Can you actually UNS the crowd, however? They are, fundamentally, not subject to the rules. If they start chanting dirty words or a streaker comes and steals the game ball, you can delay the game to have the offenders removed, but you wouldn't throw a flag.
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This situation applies to both NFHS and NCAA rules (Didn't want to start a whole new thread)
Team A trails 15-10, and has the ball 4th and goal from B7 with 2 seconds on the clock. Team A scores a touchdown and the clock reads zero, the score obviously now 16-15 with Team A as the apparent winner. After the covering official signals a touchdown, both the Team A bench rush the field in celebration, and the home crowd rushes the field to celebrate the victory. Irrespective of whether or not the try is required by rule, Team B wants the penalty enforced and the try attempted. Do we have UNS against the bench AND a UNS against the crowd, with the PAT at the 32, or just one big UNS against Team A in general and the PAT at the 17?
one foul
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Can you actually UNS the crowd, however? They are, fundamentally, not subject to the rules. If they start chanting dirty words or a streaker comes and steals the game ball, you can delay the game to have the offenders removed, but you wouldn't throw a flag.
You can't flag a "simple" 9-2-1 UNS but you can go to 9-2-3-c especially if team A is the home team and the crowds refuse to leave when directed by the officials and the announcer. I wouldn't enforce a yardage penalty but would let the crowd know that unless they leave promptly I will award team B two points and end the game.
If it is the visiting team crowd, then it is the home management problem to clear the field if they want to get a remote shot at winning the game.
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Agreed. False start on A, no foul by B.
I'm pretty sure that's right, but I posted it because I couldn't find it in the ARs and I can't recall it coming up in a bulletin or quiz that I know of. Live ball fouls never offset dead ball fouls, and the snap caused a false start so there's no live ball. It's just weird that, if this were the other kind of illegal shift, then Team B becomes guilty of wrongdoing, having committed the same conduct as before.
On the kickoff play, both of these are fouls for a fee kick out of bounds. In a, the clock starts on the touching by Team A because it is a legal touch and stops when the ball touches out of bounds. This would trigger a 10 second runoff since it was a foul before a change of team possession that caused the clock to stop and there was less than 1 minute left in the half. The game is over, Team B wins. In situation b, there is no runoff because the clock never started since the Team A player was not in bounds when he touched the kick. The ball is dead immediately upon being picked by Team A. Team B's ball at the A-41, 1st and 10 still with 9 seconds on the clock.
This one I posted because I don't recall if RR has ever said that KOB causes a runoff or not. It could potentially matter if Team A has all three timeouts and the game clock is just right, like 0:20.
Without guidance either way, I know what I'd say if it happened to me tomorrow: get real, Team A gained no advantage by conserving time here, a runoff is clearly not what the spirit of the rule intends.
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You can't flag a "simple" 9-2-1 UNS but you can go to 9-2-3-c especially if team A is the home team and the crowds refuse to leave when directed by the officials and the announcer. I wouldn't enforce a yardage penalty but would let the crowd know that unless they leave promptly I will award team B two points and end the game.
If it is the visiting team crowd, then it is the home management problem to clear the field if they want to get a remote shot at winning the game.
These are the only two I can think of that did get a penalty against the crowd. The first one, they very nearly ended up costing their team the game: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gXlrjK4cHU&t=17m22s
Here's the only one on a visiting team's fans I can find. Michigan's section at Notre Dame Stadium rushes the field thinking it's over, when there's two seconds. They assessed a UNS against Michigan in general, not just a specific act, player, or section of the crowd: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tovpDlSy5A&t=3m2s
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Guys come on. This thread is getting out of control. So many different play situations and answers that it's difficult to follow. Again, may I suggest a separate thread for any new play situations??
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And please be SPECIFIC in describing the play in the topic.