Author Topic: UNS Rule affects Mass. HS Championship Game  (Read 45359 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Curious

  • *
  • Posts: 1314
  • FAN REACTION: +36/-50
Re: UNS Rule affects Mass. HS Championship Game
« Reply #50 on: December 06, 2011, 09:48:01 AM »
Thanks to:

Skybolt (Brad) for the NCAA desktop link;
 
clearwall, Chymechowder for the list;  and TxMike (and many more) for insight

chymechowder

  • Guest
Re: UNS Rule affects Mass. HS Championship Game
« Reply #51 on: December 06, 2011, 10:22:17 AM »
Maybe Mass. should be using Federation rules.

you take that back.  god forbid we be cast down with the Fed heathens. ;)

story's picking up some speed int he boston papers. here's the touchy feely columnist's take on it.

http://bostonherald.com/news/columnists/view/2011_1206cathedral_qbs_dad_no_arm_no_foul/srvc=home&position=0

also as upset/angry as I've been on this point, I should point out that I'm really not trying to rip the officials personally.  I'm on the same board as these guys (though I work for different assignors).  what bothers me is there are people entrenched at high levels who dont necessarily have a good understanding of certain rules.  but because they're "politically" locked in, it doesn't matter.

moreover, rather than look at mistakes as educational opportunities (like we do on the college board), sometimes it's like they'd rather just scoff at the notion that they could actually be mistaken about something. and instead they just ignore questions and move on.

Berkut

  • Guest
Re: UNS Rule affects Mass. HS Championship Game
« Reply #52 on: December 06, 2011, 11:48:56 AM »
It is pretty funny that a good 40% of the comments are blaming liberals for the call.

Damn those liberals and their meddling with high school football being played by college rules! Obama needs to answer for this!  FlAg1

chymechowder

  • Guest
Re: UNS Rule affects Mass. HS Championship Game
« Reply #53 on: December 06, 2011, 12:32:52 PM »
what's wrong with that?

I still blame Leonid Brezhnev for Boston losing the 1975 world series to cincinnati.

Offline Rulesman

  • Past Keeper of the Keys
  • Refstripes Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3839
  • FAN REACTION: +65535/-2
  • Live like tomorrow never comes.
Re: UNS Rule affects Mass. HS Championship Game
« Reply #54 on: December 06, 2011, 01:18:19 PM »
what's wrong with that?

I still blame Leonid Brezhnev for Boston losing the 1975 world series to cincinnati.
...and Bill Buckner in '86 because he couldn't field a ground ball?
"Gentlemen, we are going to relentlessly chase perfection, knowing full well we will not catch it, because nothing is perfect. But we are going to relentlessly chase it, because in the process we will catch excellence. I am not remotely interested in just being good."
- Vince Lombardi

chymechowder

  • Guest
Re: UNS Rule affects Mass. HS Championship Game
« Reply #55 on: December 06, 2011, 01:22:11 PM »
haha no, brezhnev and andropov and chernenko had all died by 86....gorbachev and ted kennedy share the blame for buckner's gaffe, imo.  :)

Offline ljudge

  • *
  • Posts: 398
  • FAN REACTION: +19/-2
Re: UNS Rule affects Mass. HS Championship Game
« Reply #56 on: December 06, 2011, 02:40:34 PM »
Here are some guidelines we were given by the NCAA rules editor:

•Remember that the game is one of high emotion, played by gifted teenagers who are affirmed by playing a game at which they are exceptionally talented.
•Do not be overly technical in applying this rule.
•Do allow for brief spontaneous emotional reactions at the end of a play.
•Beyond the brief, spontaneous bursts of energy, officials should flag those acts that are clearly prolonged, self-congratulatory, and that make a mockery of the game.

A list of specifically prohibited acts is in (a) thru (h) on FR-122,123; this list is intended to be illustrative and not exhaustive.  We can all agree that when these acts are clearly intended to taunt or demean, they should not be allowed—not only because they are written in the book, but because they offend our sense of how the game should be played.  We now have enough experience with this rule to know what “feels” right and wrong. Note that most if not all of these actions fall outside the category of brief, spontaneous outbursts.  Rather, they present themselves as taunting, self-glorification, demeaning to opponents, or showing disrespect to the opponents and the game.

When such a situation arises, officials should wait a count, take a deep breath, and assess what they feel about what they have seen.

            If it feels OK, let it go. 

            If it feels wrong, flag it.

« Last Edit: December 06, 2011, 03:12:15 PM by ljudge »

110

  • Guest
Re: UNS Rule affects Mass. HS Championship Game
« Reply #57 on: December 06, 2011, 03:56:08 PM »
Having seen the video, I find it hard to justify this flag, even knowing the NCAA variances and suchlike.

Let em play.

Offline clearwall

  • *
  • Posts: 758
  • FAN REACTION: +14/-13
Re: UNS Rule affects Mass. HS Championship Game
« Reply #58 on: December 06, 2011, 05:09:45 PM »
It is pretty funny that a good 40% of the comments are blaming liberals for the call.

Damn those liberals and their meddling with high school football being played by college rules! Obama needs to answer for this!  FlAg1

I didnt see the comments about liberals, but I dont think it would be innaccurate if people DID blame liberals for it. Arent most Massachusetts-ers? liberals anyway? Kind of casting a big net with that one.

What I DID see, though, were some pretty clueless fans. I loved this one:
"What a bunch of whiners...they placed the ball at the spot of the foul and the QB threw an interception."

Sheeesh...

Offline Atlanta Blue

  • *
  • Posts: 3781
  • FAN REACTION: +160/-71
Re: UNS Rule affects Mass. HS Championship Game
« Reply #59 on: December 06, 2011, 05:33:23 PM »
"What a bunch of whiners...they placed the ball at the spot of the foul

IF the flag was for the raising of the fist (which is all I can see, I sure don't see any change in stride), then in essence, they DID place the ball at the spot of the foul.

The fist was raised ~24 yard line.  The flag is thrown at the 9.  After marking 15 yards from the 9, the ball wound up exactly where the fist went up.

Offline TxSkyBolt

  • *
  • Posts: 2007
  • FAN REACTION: +45/-46
Re: UNS Rule affects Mass. HS Championship Game
« Reply #60 on: December 06, 2011, 06:18:17 PM »
So today we apparently get the rest of the story - from an attendee at the game.  As noted earlier, the hand goes up around the 24-25 yard line.  But that's not all - it's followed by the altered stride high step at the 9-10 yard line.  The actual flag was at the 9 yard line explaining the next snap going off from the 24 yard line.  Also, during each pre-game conference, the R+U gave the coaching staffs the reminder that there would be no unsportsmanlike actions tolerated from either team, and that any such actions prior to a score are treated as a live ball fouls this year.

So after all, there was more than just a hand in the air, and the call was justified.

No evidence of any of that in the video that was posted.  No stride alterning, absolutely none. Very sad.


Offline NVFOA_Ump

  • *
  • Posts: 3849
  • FAN REACTION: +99/-283
  • High School (MA & RI)
    • Massachusetts Independent Football Officials Association
Re: UNS Rule affects Mass. HS Championship Game
« Reply #61 on: December 06, 2011, 06:27:51 PM »
Thanks to:  Skybolt (Brad) for the NCAA desktop link  .......

FYI Here's another good NCAA site with lots of football info including the 2011 Play Situation Memos:

http://www.ncaa.org/wps/portal/ncaahome?WCM_GLOBAL_CONTEXT=/wps/wcm/connect/ncaa/NCAA/Sports%20and%20Championship/Football/Playing%20Rules/index
It's easy to get the players, getting 'em to play together, that's the hard part. - Casey Stengel

Offline clearwall

  • *
  • Posts: 758
  • FAN REACTION: +14/-13
Re: UNS Rule affects Mass. HS Championship Game
« Reply #62 on: December 06, 2011, 09:44:23 PM »
IF the flag was for the raising of the fist (which is all I can see, I sure don't see any change in stride), then in essence, they DID place the ball at the spot of the foul.

The fist was raised ~24 yard line.  The flag is thrown at the 9.  After marking 15 yards from the 9, the ball wound up exactly where the fist went up.

Well, if that's true, then shame on the officials again. I thought someone earlier posted the announcement said the penalty was at the 9? 9 + 15 = 24.

Offline NorCalMike

  • *
  • Posts: 770
  • FAN REACTION: +23/-8
Re: UNS Rule affects Mass. HS Championship Game
« Reply #63 on: December 07, 2011, 12:35:03 AM »
Maybe Mass. should be using Federation rules. Then we wouldn't be having this conversation.
I wish the Fed would implement the same rule. I hate the that we must enforce as a dead ball foul.

boydmarq

  • Guest
Re: UNS Rule affects Mass. HS Championship Game
« Reply #64 on: December 07, 2011, 07:04:54 AM »
I saw the video on Fox news this morning. The talking heads are idiots (what's new?)  That said, it was a TERRIBLE call... I feel bad for the kid and his team - a horrible way to lose a championship.

Offline Atlanta Blue

  • *
  • Posts: 3781
  • FAN REACTION: +160/-71
Re: UNS Rule affects Mass. HS Championship Game
« Reply #65 on: December 07, 2011, 07:09:27 AM »
ESPN SportsCenter also had it this morning.

Offline TxSkyBolt

  • *
  • Posts: 2007
  • FAN REACTION: +45/-46
Re: UNS Rule affects Mass. HS Championship Game
« Reply #66 on: December 07, 2011, 07:30:50 AM »
In the local San Antonio newspaper this morning.  "Celebrating" is now illegal.

Offline Rulesman

  • Past Keeper of the Keys
  • Refstripes Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3839
  • FAN REACTION: +65535/-2
  • Live like tomorrow never comes.
Re: UNS Rule affects Mass. HS Championship Game
« Reply #67 on: December 07, 2011, 08:33:15 AM »
I wish the Fed would implement the same rule. I hate the that we must enforce as a dead ball foul.
Then the REAL bellyaching will begin!  :'(
"Gentlemen, we are going to relentlessly chase perfection, knowing full well we will not catch it, because nothing is perfect. But we are going to relentlessly chase it, because in the process we will catch excellence. I am not remotely interested in just being good."
- Vince Lombardi

Hank

  • Guest
Re: UNS Rule affects Mass. HS Championship Game
« Reply #68 on: December 07, 2011, 08:47:20 AM »
Then the REAL bellyaching will begin!  :'(

Maybe we could remove some of the unsportsmanlike play.  I played in North TX and our coach would remove a player from a game if he did anything like that.  You also knew that if you got removed, you were running sprints after the next practice.  Guys eventually learned it wasn't worth it.

Offline TxSkyBolt

  • *
  • Posts: 2007
  • FAN REACTION: +45/-46
Re: UNS Rule affects Mass. HS Championship Game
« Reply #69 on: December 07, 2011, 09:10:40 AM »
Hank,

Do you think raising a finger (not the middle) or fist towards the sky in an unsportsmanlike act?

Best regards,

Brad

Hank

  • Guest
Re: UNS Rule affects Mass. HS Championship Game
« Reply #70 on: December 07, 2011, 09:57:18 AM »
Without more, NO.  But what's wrong with just running into the end zone and handing the ball to the ref?

What if the same player, raises a finger and PUMPS his arm a few times?

What if an opposing player pops that player after he scores?  He was obviously incited by the scorer.  Was what the scorer did unsportsmanlike?  Should we throw a flag for the second but not the first act?

Offline TXMike

  • *
  • Posts: 8762
  • FAN REACTION: +229/-265
  • When you quit learning you quit living
Re: UNS Rule affects Mass. HS Championship Game
« Reply #71 on: December 07, 2011, 11:40:41 AM »
I saw the video on Fox news this morning. The talking heads are idiots (what's new?)  That said, it was a TERRIBLE call... I feel bad for the kid and his team - a horrible way to lose a championship.

Did you feel bad for him because of this play or the interception he threw the next time he had the ball?  (And no, I also do not believe a flag was warranted)

Offline TxSkyBolt

  • *
  • Posts: 2007
  • FAN REACTION: +45/-46
Re: UNS Rule affects Mass. HS Championship Game
« Reply #72 on: December 07, 2011, 11:43:50 AM »
Without more, NO.  But what's wrong with just running into the end zone and handing the ball to the ref?
Nothing wrong with that.

What if the same player, raises a finger and PUMPS his arm a few times?
I've got nothing if it's not directed at an opponent.

What if an opposing player pops that player after he scores?
FLAG

He was obviously incited by the scorer.
Disagree

Was what the scorer did unsportsmanlike?
  No

Should we throw a flag for the second but not the first act?
YES

Offline Rulesman

  • Past Keeper of the Keys
  • Refstripes Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3839
  • FAN REACTION: +65535/-2
  • Live like tomorrow never comes.
Re: UNS Rule affects Mass. HS Championship Game
« Reply #73 on: December 07, 2011, 12:12:59 PM »
Maybe we could remove some of the unsportsmanlike play.  I played in North TX and our coach would remove a player from a game if he did anything like that.  You also knew that if you got removed, you were running sprints after the next practice.  Guys eventually learned it wasn't worth it.
The coaches today are of a different breed than the coaches of yesteryear. There's part of the problem.
"Gentlemen, we are going to relentlessly chase perfection, knowing full well we will not catch it, because nothing is perfect. But we are going to relentlessly chase it, because in the process we will catch excellence. I am not remotely interested in just being good."
- Vince Lombardi

Hank

  • Guest
Re: UNS Rule affects Mass. HS Championship Game
« Reply #74 on: December 07, 2011, 12:31:55 PM »
Nothing wrong with that.
 I've got nothing if it's not directed at an opponent.
 FLAG
 Disagree
  No
 YES

I agree with everything you said.  Just trying to be a little bit of a devil's advocate to get people thinking.