Proper Chain setting??

[bama_stripes]

Since A legitimately gained a first down, then as described committed an UNS foul AFTER doing so, I would think they are entitled to their accomplishing a 1st down.  Unfortunately after doing so, they committed a serious (and unnecessary) foul AFTER achieving that 1st down, so they have also earned the penalty of doing so.  Set the chains to reflect their accomplishment, 1st & 10, then administer their "earned" penalty, changing their objective to 1st and 25.

Someone is stuck in 1996.

[Fatso]

Thank you Kalle, for pointing me in the right direction (in the Case Book).  Finding a "Pearl of Wisdom" is the 1st step in understanding it's value.

Yep.  Foul before ready for play = 1-10.  Even if they have multiple UNS against same team, it's still 1-10 if they all occurred before the ready for play.

[AlUpstateNY]

Someone is stuck in 1996.

Boy, sometimes I wish we were all stuck in 1996, but the fortunately/unfortunately "the beat goes on".   Kalle helped jog my memory by simply pointing me to the current Case Book explanation.

[ncwingman]

Here's one to bake your noodle. I saw this in a college game, and am not entirely convinced it was done correctly. Also, the specific foul involved was NCAA specific, so I modified it slightly so it's a foul in Fed:

2nd and 4. A runs for a 10 yard gain. As soon as the ball becomes dead, B calls a timeout. As the timeout ends (but before the RFP), A56 comes out and deliberately kicks the ball that was sitting on the ground at the dead ball spot, and is flagged for delay of game.

After the 5 yard penalty, is it 1st and 10 or 1st and 15?

(In the NCAA game, A came out of the sideline huddle with 12 in formation, and was flagged for illegal substitution.)

Essentially, was the new series awarded when the ball became dead beyond the line to gain prior to the timeout, or only upon the RFP after the timeout?

[AlUpstateNY]

Here's one to bake your noodle. I saw this in a college game, and am not entirely convinced it was done correctly. Also, the specific foul involved was NCAA specific, so I modified it slightly so it's a foul in Fed:

2nd and 4. A runs for a 10 yard gain. As soon as the ball becomes dead, B calls a timeout. As the timeout ends (but before the RFP), A56 comes out and deliberately kicks the ball that was sitting on the ground at the dead ball spot, and is flagged for delay of game.

After the 5 yard penalty, is it 1st and 10 or 1st and 15?

(In the NCAA game, A came out of the sideline huddle with 12 in formation, and was flagged for illegal substitution.)

Essentially, was the new series awarded when the ball became dead beyond the line to gain prior to the timeout, or only upon the RFP after the timeout?

"Stupid is, as stupid does" offering choices to the calling official.  As the previous Case Book play provided by Kalle suggests, the selected penalty yardage would be applied from the succeeding spot, and the ball then declared 1st & 10.  Penalty choices "could" include 15 yards for either NFHS: 9-5-1c, or 1d, 9-5-2-a or 5 yards for 3-6-2-e, as determined by the observation and judgment of the calling official.

[ncwingman]

"Stupid is, as stupid does" offering choices to the calling official.  As the previous Case Book play provided by Kalle suggests, the selected penalty yardage would be applied from the succeeding spot, and the ball then declared 1st & 10.  Penalty choices "could" include 15 yards for either NFHS: 9-5-1c, or 1d, 9-5-2-a or 5 yards for 3-6-2-e, as determined by the observation and judgment of the calling official.

Al, I mean this with all due respect, but are you okay? The way you've responded to several posts in this thread recently make me a little concerned. You're strongly latching on to one thing and ignoring everything else. I encourage you to seek help if possible. It's okay.

My scenario doesn't involve an unsportsmanlike foul. It was a five yard delay of game foul. There's no options for the calling official. They don't have choices. My question was very clearly stated at the end -- were the chains established prior to the timeout, or only after the RFP coming out of the timeout? A timeout is not an unsportsmanlike or nonplayer foul so the case plays that Kalle pointed to (and Calhoun before that) aren't relevant to this scenario.

[AlUpstateNY]

Al, I mean this with all due respect, but are you okay? The way you've responded to several posts in this thread recently make me a little concerned. You're strongly latching on to one thing and ignoring everything else. I encourage you to seek help if possible. It's okay.

My scenario doesn't involve an unsportsmanlike foul. It was a five yard delay of game foul. There's no options for the calling official. They don't have choices. My question was very clearly stated at the end -- were the chains established prior to the timeout, or only after the RFP coming out of the timeout? A timeout is not an unsportsmanlike or nonplayer foul so the case plays that Kalle pointed to (and Calhoun before that) aren't relevant to this scenario.

Thanks for your concern, but I'm fine and at times, latching on to specific behavior, like DELIBERATELY KICKING THE BALL in apparent frustration (depending EXACTLY on how and why that is accomplished could be a direct violation of NFHS: 9-5-1c, 9-5-2a or more likely 3/6/2e as observed and judged by the covering official. of that incident  3/5/2e seems the more obvious choice,  as presented, but ignoring such behavior could very easily set a really bad precedence.  I recommend patience whenever possible, but ignoring unacceptable behavior can, in and of itself, cause unacceptable, unnecessary further consequences if ignored or tolerated.  Although that is a choice best reserved for the covering official and that SPECIFIC situation.

[ncwingman]

So you are just deliberately and intentionally missing the point of the question?

Okay. Let me rephrase with just the relevant part (which I've already done TWICE now and you've deliberately ignored):

Were the chains established prior to the timeout, or only after the RFP coming out of the timeout?

[NVFOA_Ump]

So you are just deliberately and intentionally missing the point of the question?

Okay. Let me rephrase with just the relevant part (which I've already done TWICE now and you've deliberately ignored):

Were the chains established prior to the timeout, or only after the RFP coming out of the timeout?

Now you're just deliberately being stupid and ignorant to the intent of the rule and that's getting offensive.   

[CalhounLJ]

So you are just deliberately and intentionally missing the point of the question?

Okay. Let me rephrase with just the relevant part (which I've already done TWICE now and you've deliberately ignored):

Were the chains established prior to the timeout, or only after the RFP coming out of the timeout?

It’s a tricky one for sure, but I’ll take a stab. Since the timeout occurred prior to the ball being declared ready for play, this penalty will be marked off ,and the chains reset to 1st and 10.  The advent of the :40 has clouded the issue a bit as to when when the ball is declared RFP, but reading the situation as posted, the ball had not been declared RFP before the timeout.

Now, let’s say the 1st down had been awarded, the ball had been placed down, the official had moved to his position, A had lined up, and then the timeout had been called.  In this situation the ball had been declared ready for play, the new series had been awarded. If the foul had happened after a timeout in this situation it would have been 1st and 15. (Or first and 25 if the official had called a UNS.)
 

OAN, whether you want to call delay of game or UNS is certainly up to interpretation.

[Ralph Damren]

IMHO, the time out should be followed by a RFP (I'd tweet & point) to alert both teams that we are now ready for action. If the DOG/USC/IS/whatever prior to that, the chains should be reset to 1/10 after the step off. This would be administerative, with 25" play clock. Knock three times on the ceiling (with open hand) to let BJ know.

[Fatso]

Here's one to bake your noodle. I saw this in a college game, and am not entirely convinced it was done correctly. Also, the specific foul involved was NCAA specific, so I modified it slightly so it's a foul in Fed:

2nd and 4. A runs for a 10 yard gain. As soon as the ball becomes dead, B calls a timeout. As the timeout ends (but before the RFP), A56 comes out and deliberately kicks the ball that was sitting on the ground at the dead ball spot, and is flagged for delay of game.

After the 5 yard penalty, is it 1st and 10 or 1st and 15?

(In the NCAA game, A came out of the sideline huddle with 12 in formation, and was flagged for illegal substitution.)

Essentially, was the new series awarded when the ball became dead beyond the line to gain prior to the timeout, or only upon the RFP after the timeout?

1 and 10.  If the ready for play wasn't signaled yet, then it can only be 1-10. 

[bama_stripes]

By rule, reset the chains.  In practice, I don’t believe it would cross my mind to reset, nor do I think anybody else would notice.

Let A suffer the consequences of abject stupidity.

[Ralph Damren]

By rule, reset the chains.  In practice, I don’t believe it would cross my mind to reset, nor do I think anybody else would notice.

Let A suffer the consequences of abject stupidity.

In 2015 we added 5-1-1b, which allowed the referee to correct the number of the next down during that series.
In 2016,where we had been so nice with incorrect downs, SOME felt we should do likewise with misplaced chains.

That SOME  quickly  changed to NONE with the following play:

(1) A in a hurry-up offense has 1/10 @ B's 20 and down by 4;
(2) A rushes to LOS and snaps PRIOR to RFP; 
(3) Ball back to B's 25, 1/15 :
(4) A now has ball @ B's 13, 4/3.
(5) Ref has  and ANNOUNCES : FIRST AND TEN;
(4) A then scores and wins 
(5) Officials run for parking lot....

It was felt that problem should remain under 1-1-6,without any suggestions.

[ncwingman]

I also agree with this being a 1st and 10 scenario.

The rule states that, when the :40 play clock is being used, the ball is "ready for play" when it has been placed on the ground and the covering official has moved to their position -- i.e., if the U is standing over the ball, it is not yet ready for play.

If B (or A, for that matter) calls a timeout to preserve time as soon as the previous play ends, then the ball has not been placed at the in-bounds spot and made ready for play until the RFP after the timeout. Any penalty prior to that point will cause the chains to reset along with the down marker and it remains 1st and 10.

If, on the other hand, after the play resulting in a first down, the ball is placed down, the U moves away, A lines up and doesn't like the play call/defensive coverage/whatnot and then calls timeout, the ball has been made ready for play. Any penalty prior to the RFP after the timeout will result in 1/15 (or 25 or whatever).

Regardless of the outcome, I still do not understand the animosity from Al and NV over posting a question to generate a conversation. I don't particularly like being called stupid for trying to spark discussion.

[CalhounLJ]

I also agree with this being a 1st and 10 scenario.

The rule states that, when the :40 play clock is being used, the ball is "ready for play" when it has been placed on the ground and the covering official has moved to their position -- i.e., if the U is standing over the ball, it is not yet ready for play.

If B (or A, for that matter) calls a timeout to preserve time as soon as the previous play ends, then the ball has not been placed at the in-bounds spot and made ready for play until the RFP after the timeout. Any penalty prior to that point will cause the chains to reset along with the down marker and it remains 1st and 10.

If, on the other hand, after the play resulting in a first down, the ball is placed down, the U moves away, A lines up and doesn't like the play call/defensive coverage/whatnot and then calls timeout, the ball has been made ready for play. Any penalty prior to the RFP after the timeout will result in 1/15 (or 25 or whatever).

Regardless of the outcome, I still do not understand the animosity from Al and NV over posting a question to generate a conversation. I don't particularly like being called stupid for trying to spark discussion.

Precisely why this board is "ebbing." Maybe a more descriptive term is "decaying." It's no longer about the discussion. It's about attacking those who don't agree. Just like the rest of our society. Direct discourse is always the best learning tool. I've learned a bunch discussing rules on here, but it's getting harder to find someone (anyone) who wants to engage in discussion.

[Ralph Damren]

Precisely why this board is "ebbing." Maybe a more descriptive term is "decaying." It's no longer about the discussion. It's about attacking those who don't agree. Just like the rest of our society. Direct discourse is always the best learning tool. I've learned a bunch discussing rules on here, but it's getting harder to find someone (anyone) who wants to engage in discussion.

(5-man crew)
Opinions ...free speech...is what makes our country great. While we won't always agree with each other, we should respect each other. Our common intrests are football and officiating. While I disagree with some posts, I've learned a lot from you guys and hope I can pass some on to you. I was watching the Kennedy/Nixon debates on the History Channel a while back and notice dialogue such as : "My respected opponent feels this way, but I...." . Somehow that has changed to : " He's too OLD/MEAN/CRAZY/ DUMB......"

I'm 77 (soon to be 78) and trying to stay positive ,even when disagreeing, is much easier on the heart/brain/ whatever than anger and negativity. My favorite words are : UNDERSTOOD, PLEASE AND THANK YOU.. ..Thank you for taking time to read this.