muddle huddle querstion

[refjeff]

On the PAT, A25 stands near the ball as if to be the center but does not put his hands on the ball.  A shifts to a regular kick formation and A25 shifts to end and is replaced by the regular center A55.  From end A 25 releases into the EZ and catches a pass.


Legal. or illegal?

[NVFOA_Ump]

As described here, legal.  The snapper is not defined by rule until he puts his hands on the ball.  From your description there is no clear formation yet, and no snapper identified until after the players change positions.

[Ralph Damren]

A thing to watch for, when using the numbering exception, is shifts that open up an eligible. Example : K comes out with an 8 man line with 85 covering 92. Before the snap, 85 resets in the backfield uncovering 92. 92 remains ineligible, as he was ineligible prior to the shift. Also, regarding the numbering exception, be alert if the field goal unit rushes on to try just before the end of half or game. If it's NOT 4th down, ONLY the snapper can have a numbering exception. I slept with my eyes open thru one at the end of the half once.    I won't make the same mistake twice .

[Fatso]

Also, regarding the numbering exception, be alert if the field goal unit rushes on to try just before the end of half or game. If it's NOT 4th down, ONLY the snapper can have a numbering exception. I slept with my eyes open thru one at the end of the half once.

Louisiana has an exception to the exception rule. With 40 secs or less left in any period, the numbering exception for 1st, 2nd, and 3rd down is treated the same as 4th down as long as the ball is kicked.  Teams can replace all 5 50-79 players if they kick the ball.  If they don't kick the ball, whether by choice or by botched snap etc, then it's a foul for illegal numbering. 

[ncwingman]

Louisiana has an exception to the exception rule. With 40 secs or less left in any period, the numbering exception for 1st, 2nd, and 3rd down is treated the same as 4th down as long as the ball is kicked.  Teams can replace all 5 50-79 players if they kick the ball.  If they don't kick the ball, whether by choice or by botched snap etc, then it's a foul for illegal numbering.

Is this an experimental or trial rule they're doing, or just laisser le bon temps rouler, as they say?

I know this situation comes up yearly at clinics about the potential game winning field goal with 3 seconds left... but it's second down, so they can't use the numbering exception, a) who is going to remember, b) who is going to think they're gaining an advantage by it and c) who would flag it anyway?

[Ralph Damren]

Is this an experimental or trial rule they're doing, or just laisser le bon temps rouler, as they say?

I know this situation comes up yearly at clinics about the potential game winning field goal with 3 seconds left... but it's second down, so they can't use the numbering exception, a) who is going to remember, b) who is going to think they're gaining an advantage by it and c) who would flag it anyway?

In 2009 we revised the numbering exception for scrimmage kicks. I proposed adopting the NCAA version , which said something simple like : "...if it's a scrimmage kick situation.."  I guess it was too simple, so we adopted this  . That season the following occurred ,with 6" to go in the half :
(1) A fumbled at their own 10 yard line.
(2) B recovered and rushed in their FG unit- they didn't need to as clock would start on snap.
(3) Kick = 
(4) At halftime my brain began to function.
(5) Before the start of the 2nd half, I inquired from K's coach his line's numbers for FG.
(6) Most were eligible numbers.
(7) I reminded him of our spiffy new rule....
       He asked if the FG still counted  ?
       I responded that the statute of limitations ended when the first half did. 

I WON'T MAKE THAT MISTAKE AGAIN 
I WISH THEY WOULD CHANGE THAT PART OF THE RULE 

 

[Fatso]

Is this an experimental or trial rule they're doing, or just laisser le bon temps rouler, as they say?

Not sure the overall plan but the rule is in place for 2023 season.  The thought process is that smaller schools only have one field goal unit (if any), not different lineups for different downs.  This allows that team the right to hurry the unit onto the field and try a game winning FG with their normal FG unit (or end of half, or if they're with the wind etc)..  The "must kick" is to prevent exploitation of the rule (obviously).

[fudilligas]

I know this situation comes up yearly at clinics about the potential game winning field goal with 3 seconds left... but it's second down, so they can't use the numbering exception, a) who is going to remember, b) who is going to think they're gaining an advantage by it and c) who would flag it anyway?

Ever since this rule change came about I made it a point to go over it with my umpire during pregame, specifically asking him the difference in the numbering exception between downs 1,2,3 and 4th down.  Having been an umpire for 22 years before becoming an R, I was well aware of the change and wanted to make sure my crew was.  In answer to your questions: a) who is going to remember, answer: I am...b)are they gaining an advantage..answer: by bringing in their kicking team when not allowed..answer: yes...and c)who would flag it anyway...answer: I would...and probably a USC on the coach who didn't know the rule

to be honest, if I were to question members of my current and past associations, I am willing to bet that less than half would know the numbering exception between the first 3 downs and 4th down....not exactly the best opinion but probably an honest one

[refjeff]

Louisiana has an exception to the exception rule. With 40 secs or less left in any period, the numbering exception for 1st, 2nd, and 3rd down is treated the same as 4th down as long as the ball is kicked.  Teams can replace all 5 50-79 players if they kick the ball.  If they don't kick the ball, whether by choice or by botched snap etc, then it's a foul for illegal numbering.

I like that.

[refjeff]

Ever since this rule change came about I made it a point to go over it with my umpire during pregame, specifically asking him the difference in the numbering exception between downs 1,2,3 and 4th down.  Having been an umpire for 22 years before becoming an R, I was well aware of the change and wanted to make sure my crew was.  In answer to your questions: a) who is going to remember, answer: I am...b)are they gaining an advantage..answer: by bringing in their kicking team when not allowed..answer: yes...and c)who would flag it anyway...answer: I would...and probably a USC on the coach who didn't know the rule

to be honest, if I were to question members of my current and past associations, I am willing to bet that less than half would know the numbering exception between the first 3 downs and 4th down....not exactly the best opinion but probably an honest one

And it has to be a legal scrimmage kick formation.  A QB standing at 7 yards is not.

[bama_stripes]

I like that.

Me too.  It fits the spirit of the rule without allowing K to gain an advantage on a fake.

[animalspooker]

The number requirements do not exist on a scrimmage kick...correct?  How about on a PAT where the go for two?  Would you ever call 'Bad Numbers' on an attempted kick where the holder didn't secure the ball and they got into the endzone scoring 2 points?

[Ralph Damren]

The number requirements do not exist on a scrimmage kick...correct?  How about on a PAT where the go for two?  Would you ever call 'Bad Numbers' on an attempted kick where the holder didn't secure the ball and they got into the endzone scoring 2 points?

Not if they were in scrimmage kick formation.

[bossman72]

The number requirements do not exist on a scrimmage kick...correct?  How about on a PAT where the go for two?  Would you ever call 'Bad Numbers' on an attempted kick where the holder didn't secure the ball and they got into the endzone scoring 2 points?

You are only allowed to use the numbering exception in scrimmage kick formation.  The kick doesn't actually have to happen.

[Ralph Damren]

Beware if the coach that wants to have the PAT/FG kick holder to be in a 'catcher's crouch' to run a fake kick from. Inform him that THAT would not be scrimmage kick formation (per 2-14-2a) and he couldn't use the numbering exception or provide roughing the snapper protection.

[ncwingman]

b)are they gaining an advantage..answer: by bringing in their kicking team when not allowed..

Yes, it's not allowed by rule, but are they gaining a real advantage in doing so for the last second field goal attempt when everybody and their grandmothers know they're going to kick a last second field goal attempt? Football tends to be an overly conservative game as far as strategy goes, but intentionally running a fake field goal play as time expires is a bold strategy, Cotton, let's see if it pays off for them.

I like the Louisiana rule that states you have to kick the ball in that scenario, just to prevent any shenanigans, and then that completely eliminates any potential thought of advantage gained because your right tackle is number 87 and not 78.

I'm curious how it'll work with botched snaps or other breakdowns in the play -- is it a foul for illegal numbering if there's a high snap that sails over the holder's head? What if he gets the bad snap, but the delay allowed a defender to tackle the holder prior to the kick? The defense would likely decline the penalty in those scenarios anyway, but it seems more "salt in the wound" rather than illegal advantage needing penalized.

The number requirements do not exist on a scrimmage kick...correct?  How about on a PAT where the go for two?  Would you ever call 'Bad Numbers' on an attempted kick where the holder didn't secure the ball and they got into the endzone scoring 2 points?

"Do not exist" is overstating it, but I get what you're going at. You can legally have no players numbered 50-79 in a scrimmage kick formation on 4th down or a try down. You can legally have 4 of the normal 5, with the snapper as the exception, on 1st-3rd downs.

If they're not in a scrimmage kick formation, you need 5 players numbered 50-79 on the line, period, for any down. What happens after the ball is snapped is not relevant to the formation/numbering at the snap.

[NVFOA_Ump]

Beware if the coach that wants to have the PAT/FG kick holder to be in a 'catcher's crouch' to run a fake kick from. Inform him that THAT would not be scrimmage kick formation (per 2-14-2a) and he couldn't use the numbering exception or provide roughing the snapper protection.

But what if the coach actually knows the rule and the holder is in a 'catcher's crouch' but the 'kicker' is directly behind the snapper and 10 yards deep behind the LOS?   

[Fatso]

I like the Louisiana rule that states you have to kick the ball in that scenario, just to prevent any shenanigans, and then that completely eliminates any potential thought of advantage gained because your right tackle is number 87 and not 78.

I'm curious how it'll work with botched snaps or other breakdowns in the play -- is it a foul for illegal numbering if there's a high snap that sails over the holder's head? What if he gets the bad snap, but the delay allowed a defender to tackle the holder prior to the kick? The defense would likely decline the penalty in those scenarios anyway, but it seems more "salt in the wound" rather than illegal advantage needing penalized.

If a kick doesn't happen for any reason whatsoever, then it's a penalty for illegal numbering.

[KDJBBBJ]

But what if the coach actually knows the rule and the holder is in a 'catcher's crouch' but the 'kicker' is directly behind the snapper and 10 yards deep behind the LOS?   

it is still not a scrimmage kick formation if the holder does not have at least one knee on the ground,  So no numbering exception is allowed.   This is why the whole crew should know that rule.  As the U you are probably not going to see that.  The R should see it and the wing depending on the number of crew members.

[NVFOA_Ump]

it is still not a scrimmage kick formation if the holder does not have at least one knee on the ground,  So no numbering exception is allowed.   This is why the whole crew should know that rule.  As the U you are probably not going to see that.  The R should see it and the wing depending on the number of crew members.

Really?  But what does part B of the scrimmage kick formation definition say?  

[Ralph Damren]

Really?  But what does part B of the scrimmage kick formation definition say?

When written, 2-14-2b was intended to apply to a punt or drop kick. 2-14-2a was intended to apply to a place kick as per : "....with a player 3 yards or less behind that player (holder) in position attempt a place kick."

[NVFOA_Ump]

When written, 2-14-2b was intended to apply to a punt or drop kick. 2-14-2a was intended to apply to a place kick as per : "....with a player 3 yards or less behind that player (holder) in position attempt a place kick."

But for those officials, myself included, who don't know what a rule was "intended" to say and don't have any specific NFHS guidance otherwise what do we do in this case?  We have a player who clearly meets the language of 2-14-2b don't we?

[Ralph Damren]

Other then 2-14-2a referring to "in position to attempt a place kick". It was felt that 2-14-2b would apply to other then a place kick, being a punt or drop kick. Should 2-14-2b referenced in writing a punt or drop kick? Possibly, I still feel that my NCAA version of "...when a scrimmage kick was apparent" or something there such was much more simple than this.

[NVFOA_Ump]

Other then 2-14-2a referring to "in position to attempt a place kick". It was felt that 2-14-2b would apply to other then a place kick, being a punt or drop kick. Should 2-14-2b referenced in writing a punt or drop kick? Possibly, I still feel that my NCAA version of "...when a scrimmage kick was apparent" or something there such was much more simple than this.

 

[KWH]

 

Other then 2-14-2a referring to "in position to attempt a place kick". It was felt that 2-14-2b would apply to other then a place kick, being a punt or drop kick. Should 2-14-2b referenced in writing a punt or drop kick? Possibly, I still feel that my NCAA version of "...when a scrimmage kick was apparent" or something there such was much more simple than this.

Many people are saying, such a drastic wording change may require a clear Rule 2 definition of "apparent"