Muddle Huddle - When, if ever, does it become Illegal?

[NVFOA_Ump]

Repetitive scenario from one of yesterday's state championship games at Gillette Stadium:

Game clock is running and 40 second play clock is running. Team A who is consistently using all 40 seconds of the play clock is actually huddling near the numbers on their side of the field with coaches and multiple uniformed "non-players" (possible incoming substitutes?) on the field but half of them still outside the numbers.  In any given instance there would be between 12 and 15 or 16 A "players" in the "muddle".  Late in the play clock, 11 actual players would then hustle out to the ball, quickly line up and with an absolute minimum set time, snap the ball.  In at least 3 of these "muddle huddle" downs A scored TD's with B scurrying to match-up and clearly not ready at the snap.  Based on the number of times this was repeated IMHO it was a coached tactic to avoid B having any chance to match up prior to the snap.  Do we have anything?

[CalhounLJ]

Repetitive scenario from one of yesterday's state championship games at Gillette Stadium:

Game clock is running and 40 second play clock is running. Team A who is consistently using all 40 seconds of the play clock is actually huddling near the numbers on their side of the field with coaches and multiple uniformed "non-players" (possible incoming substitutes) on the field but half of them still outside the numbers.  In any given instance there would be between 12 and 15 or 16 A "players" in the "muddle".  Late in the play clock, 11 actual players would then hustle out to the ball, quickly line up and with an absolute minimum set time, snap the ball.  In at least 3 of these "muddle huddle" downs A scored TD's with B scurrying to match-up and clearly not ready at the snap.  Based on the number of times this was repeated IMHO it was a coached tactic to avoid B having any chance to match up prior to the snap.  Do we have anything?

Without seeing it, this sounds like a sub infraction. If we have more than 11 on the field after the ball is ready and nobody is trying to leave, I think I’d throw a substitution infraction flag.

I’ll also add that the only way a team can huddle on the field even outside the numbers with more than 11 is during an authorized conference.

I might also add it’s illegal for coaches to be on the field at any time other than charged conferences and in some cases officials timeouts. Certainly never while the game clock (or play clock, for that matter) is running.

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[bama_stripes]

Agree with Calhoun.  Shut this nonsense down the first time it happens.

[dammitbobby]

(I'm not NHFS) but mechanically, I would think it would still be similar to how we do it (Texas/NCAA), where if you have a situation like that, even if you don't have a flag down for sub infraction, the U should be standing over the ball giving B time to match up, regardless of the amount of time left on the play clock.  Just my opinion though.

[AlUpstateNY]

Agree with Calhoun.  Shut this nonsense down the first time it happens.

I agree with both your assessment, as well as remedy.

NFHS: 2-6-2 defines an "Authorized Team Conference. 

NFHS: 3-5-8a defines, and limits, when an Authorized Conference "may be used"
         1. a charged TO.
         2. officials TO (3-5-7g, k, i.)
         3. if granted by the R. 

[ncwingman]

(I'm not NHFS) but mechanically, I would think it would still be similar to how we do it (Texas/NCAA), where if you have a situation like that, even if you don't have a flag down for sub infraction, the U should be standing over the ball giving B time to match up, regardless of the amount of time left on the play clock.  Just my opinion though.

There's no rule or mechanic to hold the snap to allow a defensive matchup in NFHS. As soon as the :40 play clock was implemented, there was a lot of grousing that we're going to have to implement that rule as well, but it hasn't happened yet.

In my experiences, it's not been an issue and a last minute offensive sub tends to be due to offensive confusion rather than trying to deceive the defense, so there hasn't been a strong motivation to introduce the rule.

[Ralph Damren]

I agree with Calhoun;

I also agree with those that agree with Calhoun;

The best place to stop these shell-crackers (Mainer saying - others say 'foolishness')  is in pregame.

REF : "Any unusual plays  ?"
COACH : "Ayuh, 'spect so, we got..muddle huddle.. ."
REF : That ain't unusual that 'there is ILLEGAL, you pull that and I'll  for IS or you for USC for being on the field ...depending on ma' mood  ."

Stop it before it starts adds to a smoother game 

[dammitbobby]

There's no rule or mechanic to hold the snap to allow a defensive matchup in NFHS. As soon as the :40 play clock was implemented, there was a lot of grousing that we're going to have to implement that rule as well, but it hasn't happened yet.

In my experiences, it's not been an issue and a last minute offensive sub tends to be due to offensive confusion rather than trying to deceive the defense, so there hasn't been a strong motivation to introduce the rule.

Oh wow, didn't realize that you guys didn't have that.  Maybe the fact that this happened in a championship game, and appeared to be intentional, will move the needle on that change.  (It's not a bad thing, IMO)

[KWH]

If the coach brought it up in the Pre-game I agree with Ralph, let him know it is illegal and you will flag him.
If the coaches fails to mention it and/or runs it anyway:

I have three fouls: 3-7-6 ILS  Entering but not participating and 9-8-1i UNS - Being on the Field except as a substitute or replaced player r and 9-8-1f UNS Holding an Illegal Conference
All three are non-player fouls and so all three could be enforced but I would just pick one.
That should pretty much slow there roll and prevent it from happening again

[AlUpstateNY]

There's no rule or mechanic to hold the snap to allow a defensive matchup in NFHS. As soon as the :40 play clock was implemented, there was a lot of grousing that we're going to have to implement that rule as well, but it hasn't happened yet.

In my experiences, it's not been an issue and a last minute offensive sub tends to be due to offensive confusion rather than trying to deceive the defense, so there hasn't been a strong motivation to introduce the rule.

Thankfully, NFHS:3-5-7-j still provides opportunity for the Referee (unilaterally) to declare an Official's TO "for ANY unusual delay in getting the ball ready for play." maintaining his control over interruptions to/ operation of the RFP interval.

[NVFOA_Ump]

Thankfully, NFHS:3-5-7-j still provides opportunity for the Referee (unilaterally) to declare an Official's TO "for ANY unusual delay in getting the ball ready for play." maintaining his control over interruptions to/ operation of the RFP interval.

The ball is already RFP, so how would 3-5-7-j fit this scenario?

[CalhounLJ]

Nm

[AlUpstateNY]

The ball is already RFP, so how would 3-5-7-j fit this scenario?

 The R,  observing the unnecessary delay, could simply Stop the clock, end the  conference ((3-5-7g, k, i.)/or offer the Coach an opportunity to call a charged TO, and, when appropriate, re-declare the ball RFP. 

Hopefully, the necessity to do so would only happen once, avoiding invoking 3/6/2e.

[ncwingman]

Oh wow, didn't realize that you guys didn't have that.  Maybe the fact that this happened in a championship game, and appeared to be intentional, will move the needle on that change.  (It's not a bad thing, IMO)

Maybe if teams start picking up on it and trying to a quick last minute sub as a rule, but probably not as a one-off incident.

Even then, this incident wasn't just exploiting a last moment substitution -- it was an illegal substitution that should be flagged, not just holding the snap to allow for a match up. If other teams try to copy this, there should be flags as a response without changing any rules or interpretations.

[AlUpstateNY]

Maybe if teams start picking up on it and trying to a quick last minute sub as a rule, but probably not as a one-off incident.

Even then, this incident wasn't just exploiting a last moment substitution -- it was an illegal substitution that should be flagged, not just holding the snap to allow for a match up. If other teams try to copy this, there should be flags as a response without changing any rules or interpretations.

Several ways to "skin a cat", depend on what the specific intent & objective may be.

[KWH]

Several ways to "skin a cat", depend on what the specific intent & objective may be.

ALF - A better way of saying what YOU are attempting to say is:
Never let the Rules Book get in the way of a good ball game!

[AlUpstateNY]

ALF - A better way of saying what YOU are attempting to say is:
Never let the Rules Book get in the way of a good ball game!

Always appreciate constructive advice, KWH, but I'm not sure where your advice was going.  I was merely trying to suggest there are a number of different remedies, from a choice of penalties to a simple, but direct, reminder to the team to end their "discussion" and avoid inappropriate delay. 

Of course if this was a repetitive tactic, as opposed to an isolated oversight the decision should reflect what is being observed in this specific instance as opposed to a blanket conclusion.   

[PABJNR]

1st time this occurred, I would issue a sideline warning, not a verbal an actual warning, during administration I would advise coach, I gave you the warning so I didn’t have to give you an illegal substitution. 

I would advise the coach if you want to huddle like this only 11 players and stay in the coaches box.  If there are 12 in the huddle longer than 3 seconds it will be a illegal substitution. 

Problem solved without a yardage penalty, play on, stick to your word.


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[refjeff]

I don't believe that you get to a state championship game without knowing what you are doing.

Either they are intentionally committing multiple fouls to gain an unfair advantage, or they are unbelievably unorganized and confused and have been lucky to win as many games as they have.

[CalhounLJ]

Exactly. I pick theory #1.


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[yarnnelg]

As a Line Judge ...I best be in my position on the sideline ...If the clock is running that means I'm behind this mess. I will openly warn coaches they aren't to be on the field. When the huddle with thirteen breaks and heads to the ball, with two remaining to join the sidelines ... ...warnings are not appropriate ....flag flies. Illegal Substitution.