Pylon

[ohguy]

Is the pylon at the GL inbounds or out?

[maven]

Out of bounds, behind the GL.

[VALJ]

Rule 1-2-4: When properly placed, the goal line pylon is out of bounds, at the intersection of the sideline and goal line extended.

[Ralph Damren]

When improperly placed, it may be in the back of Zeb's pickup speeding away from the field. Zeb has a place for it out back near the puckerbrush and hopes his nearsighted hunting dawg will mistake it for a fire hydrant.

[WestCoastOfficial]

A22 is running toward B's goal line (near the sideline) and as he dives for the goal line the ball hits the pylon.  In a) he's completely airborne when the ball hits the pylon, or b) one of his shoes is touching inbounds when the ball hits the pylon.  Are these both touchbacks or touchdowns, or do they have different rulings?  Thanks for the help.

[maven]

A22 is running toward B's goal line (near the sideline) and as he dives for the goal line the ball hits the pylon.  In a) he's completely airborne when the ball hits the pylon, or b) one of his shoes is touching inbounds when the ball hits the pylon.  Are these both touchbacks or touchdowns, or do they have different rulings?  Thanks for the help.

TD. No difference.

8.2.1 SITUATION:

Runner A10 dives into the pylon at the intersection of the goal line and sidelines and the ball breaks the plane of the goal line.

RULING: Touchdown. Assuming the pylon was placed properly, the ball broke the plane of the goal line prior to the touching of the pylon.

[WestCoastOfficial]

TD. No difference.

8.2.1 SITUATION:

Runner A10 dives into the pylon at the intersection of the goal line and sidelines and the ball breaks the plane of the goal line.

RULING: Touchdown. Assuming the pylon was placed properly, the ball broke the plane of the goal line prior to the touching of the pylon.

Thanks, Maven.

[Ralph Damren]

If the runner is still touching  planet earth inbounds you get "goal line extended"...IE... if runner hit pylon with his shoulder with the ball in his opposite hand over OOB territory you would get a TD if the ball penetrated the extended goal line. If the airborne runner hits the pylon with anything but the ball he doesn't get an extended goal line and you would need to determine where the ball broke the sideline plane. As Maven stated ,hitting the pylon with the ball is a TD. (6-1,4-2)

[WestCoastOfficial]

If the runner is still touching  planet earth inbounds you get "goal line extended"...IE... if runner hit pylon with his shoulder with the ball in his opposite hand over OOB territory you would get a TD if the ball penetrated the extended goal line. If the airborne runner hits the pylon with anything but the ball he doesn't get an extended goal line and you would need to determine where the ball broke the sideline plane. As Maven stated ,hitting the pylon with the ball is a TD. (6-1,4-2)

Thank you, Ralph. 

Another quick question, similar scenario.  A's running toward B's goal line and fumbles the ball.  It's bouncing along and then hits the pylon.  Is it touchback - B 1st and 10 at the 20?  And, in the same scenario, A fumbles the ball but as it's bouncing around untouched, B provides a new force that causes the ball to hit the pylon on his own (B's) goal line....safety?

I'm trying to square the above scenario with the rule VALJ noted (1-2-4) where the pylon, when properly placed, is OOB at the intersection of the sideline and the goal line extended.

[maven]

Another quick question, similar scenario.  A's running toward B's goal line and fumbles the ball.  It's bouncing along and then hits the pylon.  Is it touchback - B 1st and 10 at the 20? 

Yes.

And, in the same scenario, A fumbles the ball but as it's bouncing around untouched, B provides a new force that causes the ball to hit the pylon on his own (B's) goal line....safety?

Yes.

The pylon is behind the GL, so the ball must cross the GL in order to touch the pylon. In your scenarios, the ball is beyond the GL when it touches the pylon (OOB) and becomes dead.

[WestCoastOfficial]

Thanks, maven.

[Ia-Ref]

When the pylon is placed properly it is both beyond the goal line and out of bound (oob).
How precise do you want to get with the pylon?  It will matter to one team or the other.
This is kind of like a block in the back.  Where is first contact.

For a loose ball to strike what I will call the up field side of the pylon (the side furthest from the nearest endline) first, the ball would have had to crossed oob before reaching the goal.  Thus no touchback or safety but oob between the goal and the 1 yd line.
Likewise, if a loose ball touches the inside of the pylon (nearest other sideline) first, it would have to break the plane of the goal before being oob.

[maven]

For a loose ball to strike what I will call the up field side of the pylon (the side furthest from the nearest endline) first, the ball would have had to crossed oob before reaching the goal. 

Although you are right, if the ball touches the "front" of the pylon it has crossed OOB before touching the pylon, it is not does not have OOB status or become dead until it touches something OOB. If an inbounds player were to grab the ball in the air while it was over the sideline and before it touched anything OOB, you'd have player possession at that spot.

So the ball is not OOB until it touches the pylon. But to get to the pylon, it must first cross the GL. So that's a TB in the play in question.

[Ia-Ref]

Although you are right, if the ball touches the "front" of the pylon it has crossed OOB before touching the pylon, it is not does not have OOB status or become dead until it touches something OOB. If an inbounds player were to grab the ball in the air while it was over the sideline and before it touched anything OOB, you'd have player possession at that spot.

So the ball is not OOB until it touches the pylon. But to get to the pylon, it must first cross the GL. So that's a TB in the play in question.

The point I made is for a loose ball not a possessed ball.

Rule 4-3-1
"When a loose ball goes out of bounds, the out-of-bounds spot is fixed by the yard line where the foremost point of the ball crossed the sideline."

Note there is no mention of the ball contacting anything out of bound and then fixing a spot.
This could present an enforcement challenge.  Much like a block in the back or not, watch how the pylon falls.

[maven]

I think you're missing the point. It's behind the GL before it's OOB.

[Atlanta Blue]

The point I made is for a loose ball not a possessed ball.

Rule 4-3-1
"When a loose ball goes out of bounds, the out-of-bounds spot is fixed by the yard line where the foremost point of the ball crossed the sideline."

Note there is no mention of the ball contacting anything out of bound and then fixing a spot.
This could present an enforcement challenge.  Much like a block in the back or not, watch how the pylon falls.

When is a loose ball OOB?  Not when it crosses the sideline, but when it touches something OOB.  Once it touches something OOB, THEN you determine where the foremost point was.  If a loose ball touches the pylon, if you want to try to determine that the foremast point of the ball was OOB before it crossed the goal line, good luck trying to split that hair.

If the ball hits the pylon, any side of the pylon, it went OOB in the end zone.  Stick with that, and you will be fine.

[Ia-Ref]

I think you're missing the point. It's behind the GL before it's OOB.

I do miss the point.  What rule do you reference?

If the sideline is crossed before the ball strikes the pylon, the pylon striking does indeed cause the ball to be dead but the ball is spotted where it crossed the sideline as stated in 4-3-1.

[Kalle]

Do the NFHS rules have a similar clause to the NCAA one? "A ball that touches a pylon is out of bounds behind the goal line."

[Ump33]

I do miss the point.  What rule do you reference?

If the sideline is crossed before the ball strikes the pylon, the pylon striking does indeed cause the ball to be dead but the ball is spotted where it crossed the sideline as stated in 4-3-1.

4-3-2 . . . When the out-of-bounds spot is between the goal lines, the ball
shall be put in play at the nearest hash mark to the inbounds spot unless a forward
pass is involved. If the out-of-bounds spot is behind a goal line, it is a safety,
field goal or touchback. If the ball touches a pylon, it is out of bounds behind
the goal line.

Plain & Simple ... If the ball touches a pylon, it is out of bounds behind the goal line.

[Ia-Ref]

4-3-2 . . . When the out-of-bounds spot is between the goal lines, the ball
shall be put in play at the nearest hash mark to the inbounds spot unless a forward
pass is involved. If the out-of-bounds spot is behind a goal line, it is a safety,
field goal or touchback. If the ball touches a pylon, it is out of bounds behind
the goal line.

Plain & Simple ... If the ball touches a pylon, it is out of bounds behind the goal line.

I will run with that reference never to question it again. Thanks.

[maven]

I will run with that reference never to question it again. Thanks.

The key to your question is actually the first sentence of 4-3-2. We spot the ball where it crossed the sideline, yes, but only "when the out-of-bounds spot is between the goal lines."

When the ball hits the pylon, the OOB spot is NOT between the goal lines, it's behind one. Now a different rule for the spot applies (safety, TB, etc.).

[JamesBond]

I do miss the point.  What rule do you reference?

If the sideline is crossed before the ball strikes the pylon, the pylon striking does indeed cause the ball to be dead but the ball is spotted where it crossed the sideline as stated in 4-3-1.

You can use this to help you as well 2-29-3 - A loose ball is out of bounds when it touches anything, including a player or game official that is out of bounds.

A wise man once said "Read rule 2"

[maven]

You can use this to help you as well 2-29-3 - A loose ball is out of bounds when it touches anything, including a player or game official that is out of bounds.

His concern is not WHETHER the ball is OOB, but where to spot it when it goes OOB and touches the pylon.

[Ralph Damren]

Don't look for fly poop in the pepper shaker.... ball hits the pylon - any side or on top of - it's OOB in EZ.

[Ia-Ref]

I was challenged by what seems to be the exception to 4-3-1 that is found in the last line of 4-3-2.