Author Topic: NFHS New Rules 2016  (Read 33020 times)

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Offline prab

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Re: NFHS New Rules 2016
« Reply #25 on: November 04, 2015, 03:37:58 PM »
As long as we are discussing possible rule changes for 2016, I would like to see the definition of "in bounds" added to the rules.  Now, we only have "out of bounds"  and by inference, "not out of bounds".  I would also like to have a rule change to define the in/out of bounds status of an airborne player to be the same as where he last touched the ground.   

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: NFHS New Rules 2016
« Reply #26 on: November 04, 2015, 03:38:22 PM »
That's not what's being addressed here.  Currently, if a receiver steps on the sideline, even accidentally, and then returns to the field (even if he re-establishes himself inbounds) and catches a pass, it's a foul for Illegal Participation, 15 yards from the previous spot.  This makes it Illegal Touching (5 yards and LOD).  I could see even going a step farther and just making it an incomplete pass.

Apologies for not being as clear as I hoped. My intention was to suggest, what you have stated by simply re-wording NF: 2-29-1 to read, "A player or other person is OOB when any part of the person has touched or is touching anything........that is on or outside the sideline or end line."

Offline Rulesman

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Re: NFHS New Rules 2016
« Reply #27 on: November 04, 2015, 04:18:33 PM »
Apologies for not being as clear as I hoped. My intention was to suggest, what you have stated by simply re-wording NF: 2-29-1 to read, "A player or other person is OOB when any part of the person has touched or is touching anything........that is on or outside the sideline or end line."
"Has touched" could imply some fairly broad interpretations.
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Offline scrounge

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Re: NFHS New Rules 2016
« Reply #28 on: November 04, 2015, 07:51:25 PM »
I like 4 of the 5 original proposals, especially the illegal touching vs illegal participation. Save IP for willful, egregious acts, not the accidental stepping on the line.

I'd also propose allowing immediate spikes to conserve time from the shotgun. A big % of teams these days never get under center, just let 'em spike it if done immediately.

And I will be out of step charlie and vote in favor of the victory formation protocol.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: NFHS New Rules 2016
« Reply #29 on: November 05, 2015, 09:19:14 AM »
Sorry, guys, for rehashing deadhorse: the "taking a knee" issue. When the manual was last published, I promised you guys that I would get them to take a stance on that stance. Some seemed excited :bOW, some seemed hungry eAt& for the info. When the manual was published in was nowhere to be found :( :o :'(. Some wanted to know "HOW COME ??? :o. I also wanted to know "how come ??? ???? ? I was told that felt it was addressed in the previous publication under " have a happy game ending" or something there such.......

   FAST FORWARD TO 2015....A PUBLICATION YEAR....

Feeling that I was lazy on my previous request, and was asking the Manual Committee to make one up, I should submit a proposal.

Not wanting to invent the wheel, if it had already been invented; I found a reasonable mechanic in the Ohio Gold Book.

I introduced it to our officials and coaches.

I received nothing but positive feedback from all.

In their post season meeting, the Maine Principals' Association (our governing body) gave it full approval.

I then submitted it to the NFHS and told you guys >:( :( :o ??? ::) :-[ :-X :-\ :-* :'( about it.

If we all agreed on everything, it wouldn't be a very fun forum. pi1eOn hEaDbAnG tiphat:

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: NFHS New Rules 2016
« Reply #30 on: November 05, 2015, 09:22:04 AM »
"Has touched" could imply some fairly broad interpretations.

I am absolutely positive there are an abundance of "wordsmiths" far better qualified to design bulletproof verbiage to effectively tighten the language to avoid endless interpretations.

ECILLJ

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Re: NFHS New Rules 2016
« Reply #31 on: November 05, 2015, 09:22:58 AM »
I could see even going a step farther and just making it an incomplete pass.

AB has a good  :thumbup idea on this one, incomplete pass with no other penalty seems equitable for the infraction.

But, unlike Georgia and its neighboring states, Illinois (not officially) supports  yEs: some type of language to help us deal with the victory formation.

Illinois (again unofficially) supports the gentleman from Maine with the rule change.  nAnA


Offline Cars69

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Re: NFHS New Rules 2016
« Reply #32 on: November 05, 2015, 09:30:35 AM »
WR OOB and touches ball, Illegal Touching not IP
Fouls on K on free kick enforce at dead ball spot. Reduce free kicks.
'A' Foul behind the LoS enforced from the previous spot.
Enforce dead ball UNRs away from 'game action' as UNSs.

I like these.

The targeting, I think the fed's or the state's need to do a much better job educating officials on what is targeting. I've seen some guys throw just because the helmets touched or as they said "clicked".

Offline bama_stripes

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Re: NFHS New Rules 2016
« Reply #33 on: November 05, 2015, 09:55:52 AM »
We need a "down the rabbit hole" emoji.

And I rise in opposition along with the Gentlemen from the bordering states of Jawja and Virginny.

FIFY.     nAnA

Offline VALJ

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Re: NFHS New Rules 2016
« Reply #34 on: November 05, 2015, 11:35:46 AM »
Apologies for not being as clear as I hoped. My intention was to suggest, what you have stated by simply re-wording NF: 2-29-1 to read, "A player or other person is OOB when any part of the person last touched or is touching anything........that is on or outside the sideline or end line."

This might be the most elegant fix. And I would support this - though as much as I agree it's silly that a player can be standing out of bounds, jump into the air, and be considered by rule NOT "out of bounds", that's what we have right now.

wvoref

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Re: NFHS New Rules 2016
« Reply #35 on: November 05, 2015, 12:16:03 PM »
But this still doesn't address the fact that under our current rules if a receiver accidentally steps on the sideline and continues down field he has already committed IP no matter what happens later
« Last Edit: November 05, 2015, 12:43:25 PM by wvoref »

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: NFHS New Rules 2016
« Reply #36 on: November 05, 2015, 03:07:06 PM »
But this still doesn't address the fact that under our current rules if a receiver accidentally steps on the sideline and continues down field he has already committed IP no matter what happens later

Including the exception of being forced OOB by an opponent, under current rules, A or K is EXPECTED to KNOW where he is regarding the sideline.  At one point the mechanic was to beanbag where A or K went OOB (which is nothing but identifying a fact) and flag him if/when he CHOSE to come back in-bounds. "FORGET ACCIDENTALLY, unless you've been forced OOB by an opponent, going OOB is the players responsibility and it takes him out of the play  AND HE CANNOT LEGALLY PARTICIPATE

The game is played BETWEEN THE LINES, and A or K CHOOSES how close he wants to play to the sideline, and it's his RESPONSIBILITY to avoid taking himself out of the game by being careless.

wvoref

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Re: NFHS New Rules 2016
« Reply #37 on: November 05, 2015, 08:31:02 PM »
Including the exception of being forced OOB by an opponent, under current rules, A or K is EXPECTED to KNOW where he is regarding the sideline.  At one point the mechanic was to beanbag where A or K went OOB (which is nothing but identifying a fact) and flag him if/when he CHOSE to come back in-bounds. "FORGET ACCIDENTALLY, unless you've been forced OOB by an opponent, going OOB is the players responsibility and it takes him out of the play  AND HE CANNOT LEGALLY PARTICIPATE

The game is played BETWEEN THE LINES, and A or K CHOOSES how close he wants to play to the sideline, and it's his RESPONSIBILITY to avoid taking himself out of the game by being careless.

Maybe I'm mistaken but I don't think the purpose of the OP's suggested rule change was just to deal with a case where a player goes OOB then jumps in the air and touches or catches a pass. I think the suggested rule change was to eliminate the IP foul when a player inadvertently steps on the sideline but still retain some penalty for them being first to touch a forward pass. The current 15 yard IP penalty for inadvertently stepping on the sideline strikes me as killing a gnat with a sledge hammer   Now that being said I would still retain the IP foul for intentionally going out of bounds.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: NFHS New Rules 2016
« Reply #38 on: November 06, 2015, 11:30:17 AM »
 deadhorse: pi1eOn deadhorse: Just once more, guys, and I'll go for my lobster chowder & nap....

IMHO, the major effect our victory formation mechanic had was coach involvement. In our preseason coaches meetings, I stressed the importance of cleaning up our game as best as we could. The shoving/ pushing / cussing that occurs several times each year, after a B player cracks into an A player while the QB was taking a knee didn't give that impression. While our haphazard : "It's a play", "Play smart", "Be good sports" and the like were well intentioned, some players didn't listen.

This year, with the lead under 9 or with timeouts remaining, some B coaches advised that they were going to "play". Often the A coach would yell : "BE READY ,GUYS, THEY'RE COMING" ,while the B coach would instruct : "BE CLEAN, MEN, BE CLEAN".  If B was to be harnessed, B's coach would  yell : " STAY OUT ,GUYS, STAY OUT AND_________ THAT MEANS YOU, TOO!!".  The coach will know who his potential troublemakers are!

My apologizes, guys, for belaboring this; but it worked well for us to regain control of game-ending situations as we realized that the players will listen to their coach better than us. Statewide no problems was reported.

    deadhorse: :sTiR: deadhorse: :sTiR: deadhorse: :sTiR: pi1eOn hEaDbAnG

  .....that chowder will taste good, and that nap will be needed. Wish all of you an enjoyable Friday Night Lights tiphat:.

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: NFHS New Rules 2016
« Reply #39 on: November 06, 2015, 12:12:22 PM »
Ralph:

If you had a problem, I contend it was because it either wasn't being coached or officiated properly before.  As I said earlier, in 17 seasons, I have seen ONE instance of a player trying to take a cheap shot on a kneel down play, and that was in a JV game.  I NEVER saw it happen in a Varsity game, not once.  In that JV game, the player was ejected, and his own teammates literally grabbed him and pulled him off the field.

It's a non-issue, and I don't like officials injecting themselves into plays in this manner.  We already have rules for these situations.  In your scenario, why even bother going through the formality of kneeling?  Coach A says we're taking a knee, Coach B says we won't rush - OK, the game is over.  The coaches have mutually agreed to end the game early, again, something that is allowed by rule.

Going through the 9 points or less, check with each sideline, agree not to rush or play - needless waste of time.  And if a kid is bound and determined to be a hothead and blast a kneeling QB with a cheap shot, this rule isn't going to stop it, in fact, it might make it easier because the offensive line will relax based on the "agreement".

Want to really discourage these actions?  Make mandatory suspensions for players that are ejected, the ejection is doubled if it's in the last minute of play.  We have the mandatory suspension part now ( but not the doubling in the last minute), and if you are a senior and you can't serve your suspension in football, it carries over to the next sport you play.  So now you are sitting out the first two basketball or baseball games.  The only players with "nothing to lose" are seniors in their last game that play no other sports.  That's a small enough percentage that we can deal with those.

Again, if this is a problem in Maine, just end the game.  That's the only real way to stop it.

Offline Ia-Ref

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Re: NFHS New Rules 2016
« Reply #40 on: November 06, 2015, 06:54:03 PM »
Voting only allows one choice.  I would support a couple of these.

WR OOB and touches ball, Illegal Touching not IP - YES!
List Targeting/Helmet fouls as Automatic First Downs - No
Fouls on K on free kick enforce at dead ball spot. Reduce free kicks. - Yes, but not for the reason given
'A' Foul behind the LoS enforced from the previous spot. - Yes, but it's been brought up and voted down before
Enforce dead ball UNRs away from 'game action' as UNSs. - OK, but a meaningless distinction.

And before anyone argues that's it's not meaningless under the the "2 UNS and you're out" theory, you already have the option of ejecting for ANY foul you deem flagrant.   If a player has a second dead ball UNR, that's flagrant, toss him.
I agree with AB for all above.  Especially, the IP foul change and Previous Spot Enforcement.
I would also like to add that the clock start on the RTP for incomplete passes with the exception of within two minutes of the end of a half and an intentional "spike".
"Because you can referee wrong, make a mistake, but what you can not do is create your own sense of justice and, even worse, invent a very personal application of the rules."   Dutch legend (soccer coach) Johan Cruyff

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: NFHS New Rules 2016
« Reply #41 on: November 07, 2015, 08:51:58 AM »

Want to really discourage these actions?  Make mandatory suspensions for players that are ejected, the ejection is doubled if it's in the last minute of play.  We have the mandatory suspension part now ( but not the doubling in the last minute), and if you are a senior and you can't serve your suspension in football, it carries over to the next sport you play.  So now you are sitting out the first two basketball or baseball games.  The only players with "nothing to lose" are seniors in their last game that play no other sports.  That's a small enough percentage that we can deal with those.

You're right, it seems (in many ways) we've forgotten that punishment is supposed to HURT. It's the "HURT" that motivates the offender NOT TO REPEAT what caused the HURT.

Offline NorCalMike

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Re: NFHS New Rules 2016
« Reply #42 on: November 07, 2015, 12:38:42 PM »
No double penalty for last minute fouls but if you get ejected whether player or coach, you are out the next game too. If it is the last game of the season and you play another sport like basketball it carries over.

Offline Rulesman

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Re: NFHS New Rules 2016
« Reply #43 on: November 07, 2015, 08:49:37 PM »
...if you get ejected whether player or coach, you are out the next game too. If it is the last game of the season and you play another sport like basketball it carries over.
The National Federation will NEVER agree (i.e.: write it into a rule book) to carry penalties over from one sport to another. That's the responsibility of the governing body of each state.
"Gentlemen, we are going to relentlessly chase perfection, knowing full well we will not catch it, because nothing is perfect. But we are going to relentlessly chase it, because in the process we will catch excellence. I am not remotely interested in just being good."
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Offline Logical

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Re: NFHS New Rules 2016
« Reply #44 on: November 17, 2015, 04:35:16 PM »
allow K to advance kicks on legal possession

Offline Jackhammer

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Re: NFHS New Rules 2016
« Reply #45 on: November 17, 2015, 07:12:31 PM »
Enforce sideline interference as a live ball foul according to ABO
"The only whistle that kills a play is an inadvertent one"

"The only thing black and white in officiating is the uniform"

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: NFHS New Rules 2016
« Reply #46 on: November 18, 2015, 09:08:27 AM »
The current 15 yard IP penalty for inadvertently stepping on the sideline strikes me as killing a gnat with a sledge hammer   Now that being said I would still retain the IP foul for intentionally going out of bounds.

There is NO PENALTY for stepping on a sideline, deliberately or inadvertently, the penalty is for what may be done AFTER stepping on a sideline.  The suggested change of adding "has touched" to "is touching" clears up a silly "wordsmithing" problem, that can create silly arguments and simply codifies what most officials understood for 100 years.

It's OK to take yourself OOB, but once you do (no matter how YOU do) you're OOB for the remainder of that play. - and there are consequences (IP) if YOU decide to return.

As for the "sledge hammer";  the game is intended to be played between the lines, if you take yourself across the line inadvertently (accidentally, not meaning to, didn't see it, etc.) THAT'S ON YOU.  You haven't fouled, but if you come back in, there's a sledge hammer waiting for you. Everyone needing to know where they are, isn't (shouldn't be) an unreasonable burden. 

Currently, there is one rational exception; if a player is FORCED OOB by an opponent, and returns ASAP, his being OOB is ignored, which makes perfect sense.

Do we really want to ADD deciding whether a player's going OOB "on his own" was intentional, accidental, inadvertently, didn't really mean to or any of the other 657 excuses players and coaches can create to excuse a player not paying attention to where he is?
« Last Edit: November 18, 2015, 09:12:17 AM by AlUpstateNY »

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: NFHS New Rules 2016
« Reply #47 on: November 18, 2015, 09:25:50 AM »
allow K to advance kicks on legal possession
I've never seen this proposed before, but extended action after a kick ...running kicks outa' end zone...has never gone far.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: NFHS New Rules 2016
« Reply #48 on: November 18, 2015, 09:30:38 AM »
Enforce sideline interference as a live ball foul according to ABO
Live ball fouls that are treated as dead ball fouls, such as sideline interference, are so handled as they didn't have any effect on the actual play. I can't see any changes to this.

ECILLJ

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Re: NFHS New Rules 2016
« Reply #49 on: November 18, 2015, 11:22:37 AM »
Live ball fouls that are treated as dead ball fouls, such as sideline interference, are so handled as they didn't have any effect on the actual play. I can't see any changes to this.

I agree with Ralph.  yEs: Here is an occurrence I once observed, Team B had not scored and there was a  40 pt. differential and it was late in the 4th quarter. Team B returned a kick-off for a TD  ^good. During the return an overly excited Team B coach was jumping up and down with excitement inside the no-enter zone of the sideline. The HL  z^ did not see him and they collided, no one was injured. Bringing that TD back  ^no would have not served any purpose. Tack the penalty  ^flag onto the next play.