Horse-collar

[sczeebra]

Would anyone consider awarding an automatic first down when a player initiates that type of action while out of bounds? Merry Christmas ya'll!

[NVFOA_Ump]

Would anyone consider awarding an automatic first down when a player initiates that type of action while out of bounds? Merry Christmas ya'll!

Granting an automatic 1st down on a DB-PF of any description loosens the cover of Pandora's Box IMHO.  What would be the enforcement if it was a 4th down play and the LTG had not been made?  I prefer the current limitations where only the 4 roughing fouls get automatic 1st downs.  That's clearly based on 4 specific instances where players are in positions that make then especially susceptible to injury.  Also, if a team is in a position where a 15 yard enforcement does not result in a 1st down then that's on them and IMHO we should not be awarding what is effectively a 2nd penalty on top of the 15 yards.  My 2 cents worth.

[ncwingman]

I would not do so if it was *only* for a "dead ball personal foul that would have been a horse collar if it was still in the field of play". That's way too specific. What if it was targeting? Or just an unnecessary late hit? It would have to be all dead ball personal fouls, or none.

I'm generally not for automatic first downs. I know that's what they do in the NFL, but their goal is to increase offense, increase exciting plays, increase scoring and keep the fans interested. That's not (or shouldn't be) the goal of high school football and I don't think we should emulate those sorts of rules just because it's As Seen On TV. I certainly don't want to end up with their rule where everything is an AFD -- except for 10 situations where 3 are offsides, 3 are illegal substitutions, 2 are delay of game and 2 are scrimmage kick fouls (running into the kicker and illegal formation), so really only 4.

It would be an interesting (and tedious) study to see how many major (15 yard) fouls do NOT result in a first down by yardage as a whole. My guess is that there's a vanishingly small percentage of major defensive fouls on plays with more than 15 yards to the LTG, and a significantly larger (but still small) percentage that are in Goal-to-Go situations.

I don't like this as a weird carve out, but I wouldn't be as horribly opposed to AFD on major penalties when the ball is snapped inside the 20 (or so...). If the foul happened at the 40, the 15 yards would normally grant a 1st down, but since it's half the distance and therefore less than 10 yards, it may not result in a first down.

[AlUpstateNY]

Granting an automatic 1st down on a DB-PF of any description loosens the cover of Pandora's Box IMHO.  What would be the enforcement if it was a 4th down play and the LTG had not been made?  I prefer the current limitations where only the 4 roughing fouls get automatic 1st downs.  That's clearly based on 4 specific instances where players are in positions that make then especially susceptible to injury.  Also, if a team is in a position where a 15 yard enforcement does not result in a 1st down then that's on them and IMHO we should not be awarding what is effectively a 2nd penalty on top of the 15 yards.  My 2 cents worth.

I Agree.  NFHS 2-16-a defines a "Dead Ball "foul as : "A foul which occurs in the time interval after a down has ended and before the ball is next snapped or free kicked["/b]. The foul had no impact, no benefit or hindrance, to the play that has just ended. The penalty is assessed for, whatever violation, after and apart from the play completed. If the defense legally prevented the offense from achieving a new series, the offensive opportunity to continue has ended has ended, and the ball belongs to the defense, who then because of their DB foul is subject to penalty., prior to starting their offensive efforts.

If the offense is guilty of a DB foul AFTER achieving a 1st down, they are entitled to a new series of downs, subject to begin after application of the yardage penalty for their DB violation. That seems a straightforward  "Cause & Effect" and alteration would only create unnecessary argument & confusion.