Wisconsin/Arizona State ending

[RMR]

Washington/BYU was a horrible call by the officials to begin with. You don't call UNS unless it's something that's actually unsportsmanlike, like doing an end zone dance or the Lambeau Leap.

Bad officiating gave me the idea to get into it. This is what got my friend who's a Linesman into officiating back in the 90s, in his words: "If you want something done right, you do it yourself."

In that case you should probably note that Locker's action with the ball was specifically prohibited by way of an example in the rulebook.

I guess that makes it unsportsmanlike by definition, no?

[RMR]

I haven't seen a single mention of Wisconsin's snap infraction on that final snap.  If we want to play the what if game let's be sure and throw that out there as well.

[Diablo]

In all of this the one thing I have heard that did make some sense was that they (and we when it happens to us, us) could have used the rules to shut it down, get the ball and spot with a RFP and wind on the whistle.

Indeed the play unfolded in an unusual fashion, which probably caused the crew to lose focus on the situation - as it would to any of us.  Nevertheless, someone (R or U most likely) should have signaled TO.  Rule passage 3-3-1-a gives the R broad power to call a TO in uncommon situations like this one.

Last sentence of 3-3-1-a:  "The referee may declare and charge himself with a discretionary timeout for any contingency not elsewhere covered by the rules (A.R. 3-3-1-IV).   

[StudyingFutureZebra]

I guess I'm just used to football from a different time. The football I remember from my childhood was before all these new "targeting" rules and before they tried to make the game "so safe" that they're effectively ruining football.

My problem is the targeting rule and the number of roughing the passer calls that you see these days. Even if the defensive player is so close to the QB that when he throws, the pursuer has no way of getting out of the way-and he still gets flagged. Breathe on the receiver out of bounds and you get called for a late hit. And now, the best hits that you longed to see every week will get you ejected. And most of those are judgement calls, and every official is going to rule differently.

[Rulesman]

Washington/BYU was a horrible call by the officials to begin with. You don't call UNS unless it's something that's actually unsportsmanlike, like doing an end zone dance or the Lambeau Leap.

Bad officiating gave me the idea to get into it. This is what got my friend who's a Linesman into officiating back in the 90s, in his words: "If you want something done right, you do it yourself."

When I read your first couple of posts I thought to myself "He might be one that gets it." Since then, however, I suggest that you don't quit your day job. Your bedside manner leaves much to be desired and unless you change your approach, you won't last long in this business.

[StudyingFutureZebra]

I haven't seen a single mention of Wisconsin's snap infraction on that final snap.  If we want to play the what if game let's be sure and throw that out there as well.

How was there a snap infraction?


I've wondered do individual college football conferences hire their own officials and how do you get assigned games?

[Cowman52]

The crew got in a hurry, was more worried about stopping the clock to get it fixed and instead let the clock run out and still didn't fix it. Nothing more complicated than that.

[Joe Stack]

Unless someone can show me a provision for stopping the clock here -- either by the officials on their own or due to a foul by ASU -- I don't know how ANY crew could have gotten this right. The QB would have most likely snapped the ball with less than 3 seconds and not been able to get another play off.

Larry Scott hung his guys out to dry to appeal to the media who will blame the officials for everything, regardless of the situations they are put into.

[RMR]

How was there a snap infraction?


I've wondered do individual college football conferences hire their own officials and how do you get assigned games?

Well, watch what the snapper does on his last snap.

And yes.

[Welpe]

Washington/BYU was a horrible call by the officials to begin with. You don't call UNS unless it's something that's actually unsportsmanlike, like doing an end zone dance or the Lambeau Leap.

Bad officiating gave me the idea to get into it. This is what got my friend who's a Linesman into officiating back in the 90s, in his words: "If you want something done right, you do it yourself."

This made me smile because I was once in your shoes as a young youth football coach. I was so bound and determined to do it better from the gate.

Experience is a humbling thing. Bully nailed it when he said it is amazing how much better the officiating is once you actually start doing it.

I do sincerely wish you luck, I hope you will reflect upon your posts in a few years after you have many snaps under your belt.

[Kalle]

Washington/BYU was a horrible call by the officials to begin with. You don't call UNS unless it's something that's actually unsportsmanlike, like doing an end zone dance or the Lambeau Leap.

Just a side note: if you ever make it to the NCAA officiating, you too will be flagging such actions. Or, if you won't, you probably won't be retained for long.

[James]

Bad officiating gave me the idea to get into it. This is what got my friend who's a Linesman into officiating back in the 90s, in his words: "If you want something done right, you do it yourself."

Actually 11 years in and that is (almost) also how I got started. We have a chronic shortage of officials and bad retention, and in a game were I was a player there were some major problems with some new officials.
So, after the game I went to the white hat and said basically 'You (the association) need as much help as you can get. How do I get started as an official'.
I guess the difference is that I didn't want to fix it - just help support them because they needed people.

As for football being better in 'the good ol days' - As someone who played for 18 years I don't think I agree. I look now at what I did then to my body - especially my head and realize I put my future self way at risk without understanding the consequences.
The new rules are changing what football is. Not making it better or worse, but trying to make it safer for people. Maybe more boring for (some) fans - but they have other options like boxing, MMX or car crashes to watch.

[NVFOA_Ump]

Well, watch what the snapper does on his last snap.

And yes.

There is nothing wrong with the snap on this play - no need to make stuff up to justify a mistake.

There is a minimum of 2 very loud and clear whistles sounded, with multiple toots, at the 15 second mark when both teams are virtually in scrimmage formation and the ball is virtually at the succeeding spot.  Also, both teams clearly stopped playing for at least 2-3 full seconds until the creative B player basically said what the heck, let's do our best to screw this up since they have a chip shot field goal attempt.

Diablo has the only correct answer here.  Team B intentionally tried to kill time and we failed to correctly handle the situation.  We note that the rules allow us to stop the clock in this situation, we've learned to stay better focused at crunch time, and we move on.  Additionally, there's at least 1 umpire commenting on this board that thinks that a delay of game on B here would be 100% justified.

[bama_stripes]

"Act like you've been there before" -- many coaches

"Handing the ball to the nearest official can never be misjudged." -- Bama_Stripes

[Kalle]

Additionally, there's at least 1 umpire commenting on this board that thinks that a delay of game on B here would be 100% justified.

With no IR I could agree with you, but with the IR and the "immediate continuing action" rules, I don't really see how you could flag team B for going for an apparent loose ball even after the whistle. Would you always flag team B or only when the game clock is winding down?

And yes, the crew got confused by the weird action by the QB. Yes, they should have handled this better, but I still claim that when your team is in hurry-up, if you leave the ball on the ground instead of handing it over to the nearest official you're asking for trouble.

[TXMike]

  Also, both teams clearly stopped playing for at least 2-3 full seconds until the creative B player basically said what the heck, let's do our best to screw this up since they have a chip shot field goal attempt.

  Really?  And what is your factual basis for this allegation.  You cannot view the events of that moment in time using the knowledge you have gained since then.  Put yourself in that player's shoes AT THAT MOMENT.  The ASU head coach's post game interview made clear he and his staff thought the ball was a fumble and were yelling at the team to cover the ball.  That is a fact.  He has subsequently said now that he has reviewed the video he realizes the Qb was down before he gave up the ball.  But he did not know that at THAT MOMENT.  It is way too easy to fall into the trap of looking at a situation and slowing it down, backing it up, replaying it, etc etc instead of just thinking what would have been logical AT THAT MOMENT knowing what a person knew.  Hell when we all saw the video the first time I suspect most of us thought the QB had just put the ball on the ground.  Why is it so hard to accept that is what Tam B coaches thought and maybe even some of the players thought?   

The only way I would support a delay of game call against the defense here would be if the U was adamantly ordering the player off the ball so he could spot it and the player refused the order.

[Morningrise]

The QB would have most likely snapped the ball with less than 3 seconds and not been able to get another play off.

The new three-second rule applies only when the clock will start on the snapready. In this case the clock was already running so the rule would not apply.

EDIT: Whoops.

[LJ10]

The new three-second rule applies only when the clock will start on the snap. In this case the clock was already running so the rule would not apply.

Isn't it the other way around?  The 3-second rule applies only when the clock will start on the ready? (3-2-5-a).  But, agree, this rule wouldn't apply anyway as clock was running at the time. 

[NVFOA_Ump]

The only way I would support a delay of game call against the defense here would be if the U was adamantly ordering the player off the ball so he could spot it and the player refused the order.

Sorry but we'll disagree here.  The officials on the field clearly made an obvious decision and the multiple loud and clear whistles that sounded immediately indicated such.  IMHO at an absolute minimum, the clock could, and probably should have been stopped when B clearly interfered with a ball that had previously been blown dead.  Stopping the clock would have in no way impacted the possibility of IR reviewing the play for a look at a "continuing action" recovery of a fumble.

[RMR]

There is nothing wrong with the snap on this play - no need to make stuff up to justify a mistake.

Pointing something out that is pretty evident in the video is now making stuff up to justify a mistake? Really?

Are snappers in your part of the world allowed to lift the ball off the ground and place it back down prior to snapping it?

[TXMike]

Sorry but we'll disagree here.  The officials on the field clearly made an obvious decision and the multiple loud and clear whistles that sounded immediately indicated such.  IMHO at an absolute minimum, the clock could, and probably should have been stopped when B clearly interfered with a ball that had previously been blown dead.  Stopping the clock would have in no way impacted the possibility of IR reviewing the play for a look at a "continuing action" recovery of a fumble.

Not disagreeing about stopping the clock but it is way over officious to think about penalizing B in this obviously confusing situation.

[NVFOA_Ump]

Pointing something out that is pretty evident in the video is now making stuff up to justify a mistake? Really?

Are snappers in your part of the world allowed to lift the ball off the ground and place it back down prior to snapping it?

If you're talking about the 2nd snap, and not the first one, by rule the 2nd snap never happened since the game was already ruled over by then.  If there was actually a play, then the 2nd snap would be a judgment call based on what the U and wings had been allowing all game.

[RMR]

If you're talking about the 2nd snap, and not the first one, by rule the 2nd snap never happened since the game was already ruled over by then.  If there was actually a play, then the 2nd snap would be a judgment call based on what the U and wings had been allowing all game.

Yes, I'm talking about the second snap.  In your opinion (assume for the sake of discussion that there is time to get it off, etc.) , did that look like a legal snap to you?

[RMR]

So we've seen plenty of discussion about how not to do it - how about an illustration of the proper way to do it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJbPjX9B-IQ

[Topspot]

I'm just a fan trying to understand the rules.  I've read the thread and lots of non-ref postings on other boards, but am still confused and hope you will indulge my questions.

1.  Is everyone in agreement that QB's knee either touched ground or at a minimum simulated taking a knee such that it was appropriate to call the play over and rule the ball dead?

2.  I've read justifications of ASU players jumping on ball as a possible fumble after the whistle had blown because of "immediate continuing action."  The players did not jump on the ball until about 3 seconds after the QB placed the ball on the ground and 2 seconds after the ref blew the whistle.  What's the standard for determining whether something qualifies as "immediate continuing action" and IF this had been a fumble would the ASU player's actions have met the standard?

3.  Why is delay of game not appropriate here?  I get ASU players could have legitimately thought this was a fumble and were just trying to recover the ball.  But, it took one ASU player about 8 seconds to get off the ball with official over him presumably telling him to get up (the other two ASU players were off the ball in a couple of seconds).  If the ref urgently ordered the player to get off the ball and he was that slow to do so with game on the line, why no delay of game?  And, if ref wasn't urgently telling player to get off ball with clock ticking down, isn't this a failure of the ref?

4.  What's the rule for a ref to stop the clock on his own?  Is this something any of the refs can do or is it just the head ref's call to make?

5.  After ASU players were off ball and the official placed it down, why did he hold up his hand a couple of seconds to prevent Wisconsin from snapping it?