Play Situations

[Legacy Zebra]

Be careful how you would report that to the Referee.  Wouldn't want him saying "defensive pass interference with targeting."  No biggie if he did since B would decline the DPI and get the ball way down the field at the B38.  But I do agree with your ruling.  Tack it on!

That's exactly how I would report it because that's how the white hat needs to announce it. If you don't announce "DPI with targeting" and only announce "targeting" then Team A gets nothing if replay overturns the targeting. Also why would B be declining DPI?

[Kalle]

Also why would B be declining DPI?

15 yards from the previous spot would be less advantageous than the result of the play.

[dvasques]

But B wouldn't decline anything since the foul was by B

[Kalle]

But B wouldn't decline anything since the foul was by B

Ah, right, didn't notice the typo

[bossman72]

15 yards from the previous spot would be less advantageous than the result of the play.

If DPI happened 5 yards down field, you would decline DPI and take TGT

[Kalle]

If DPI happened 5 yards down field, you would decline DPI and take TGT

Yes, if the referee realizes this. In a game without an IR I think I would like to get only the most likely foul designation (either DPI or TGT) from the calling official, it would make my life as a referee a bit easier. In an IR game you have be more careful, of course. Keeping things simple usually results in fewer errors.

[BlindZebra]

That's exactly how I would report it because that's how the white hat needs to announce it. If you don't announce "DPI with targeting" and only announce "targeting" then Team A gets nothing if replay overturns the targeting. Also why would B be declining DPI?

Pardon the typo...B wouldn't be declining anything.  Coffee late in the day was not a good idea.

I wouldn't report DPI and instead make the DPI a UNR.  Agree with you that just calling TGT is not the proper thing to do here.  By saying UNR with TGT, it solidifies the fact that we can tack the penalty on if replay removes the TGT.  If you report DPI with TGT and replay confirms the TGT, we can't tack the foul on since the penalty enforcement for DPI is specific.  Thoughts?

[BlindZebra]

Try from B3 at position 3.  Team A commits a false start and is penalized to the B8.  The kick attemt is blocked, but B77 was in the neutral zone at the snap.  the penalty takes the ball to the B4 where team A request that the ball be placed at position 1.  Is the relocation request granted or denied?

[TxSkyBolt]

You'd take the targeting either way as result is more advantageous to A, right?


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[bossman72]

Yes, if the referee realizes this. In a game without an IR I think I would like to get only the most likely foul designation (either DPI or TGT) from the calling official, it would make my life as a referee a bit easier. In an IR game you have be more careful, of course. Keeping things simple usually results in fewer errors.

What does replay have to do with this play?  This is just regular penalty administration.  These are the types of questions you have to ask your calling official if you don't think they're good enough to report the information properly to you... or go over this scenario in pregame and mention to them that this is how you want it reported when you have TGT and another foul.

[Morningrise]

Try from B3 at position 3.  Team A commits a false start and is penalized to the B8.  The kick attemt is blocked, but B77 was in the neutral zone at the snap.  the penalty takes the ball to the B4 where team A request that the ball be placed at position 1.  Is the relocation request granted or denied?

I just re-read the rule and noticed some blue highlighting this year. I also noticed my prior understanding of it is (I think) wrong, though I'm not sure whether the new editorial change is responsible for that. Here's what I think now, but I'm not positive I'm reading it right: A timeout by either team can "unlock" the spot, but not after Team A has committed a foul. A foul by Team B will always unlock the spot, on the other hand.

So, granted?

It appears the lateral spot after a touchback does not work the same way. Team B fouls do not unlock that spot at all. Only timeouts unlock it, and again, only up until Team A commits a foul.

[BlindZebra]

You'd take the targeting either way as result is more advantageous to A, right?


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My understanding is that if you have a foul with targeting, only the foul that is called is enforced.  For example, if the foul is announced DPI with targeting, the only foul that will be penalized is the DPI.  Replay is reviewing that the player is ejected or not.  However, if the foul is only announced as targeting replay is reviewing the ejection and if it is confirmed the 15 yard penalty is enforced.  Someone please let me know if I am wrong on this, but if we have a foul with targeting...the only option the offended team has is the foul that is reported and not targeting.

[Bwest]

My understanding is that if you have a foul with targeting, only the foul that is called is enforced.  For example, if the foul is announced DPI with targeting, the only foul that will be penalized is the DPI.  Replay is reviewing that the player is ejected or not.  However, if the foul is only announced as targeting replay is reviewing the ejection and if it is confirmed the 15 yard penalty is enforced.  Someone please let me know if I am wrong on this, but if we have a foul with targeting...the only option the offended team has is the foul that is reported and not targeting.

Your understanding is not correct. We announce that we have a foul...with targeting in order to announce that we have two fouls. That way, if targeting gets wiped off the board by replay, we can still enforce the one foul we have left.

If we announce the non targeting foul, we fail to penalize B appropriately for targeting. If we only announce targeting and it gets overturned, we are letting B get away with a foul that should be penalized even without the targeting aspect.

[Kalle]

What does replay have to do with this play?  This is just regular penalty administration.  These are the types of questions you have to ask your calling official if you don't think they're good enough to report the information properly to you... or go over this scenario in pregame and mention to them that this is how you want it reported when you have TGT and another foul.

If I understand the IR rules right, if you have an action that qualifies both as DPI and TGT, and the referee only announces TGT, then if the IR reverses the TGT call, you no longer have any foul. If you announce "DPI by TGT", then you still have a foul even if IR reverses the TGT part.

I don't think this is an issue in any crew that works IR games, though.

[BlindZebra]

Your understanding is not correct. We announce that we have a foul...with targeting in order to announce that we have two fouls. That way, if targeting gets wiped off the board by replay, we can still enforce the one foul we have left.

If we announce the non targeting foul, we fail to penalize B appropriately for targeting. If we only announce targeting and it gets overturned, we are letting B get away with a foul that should be penalized even without the targeting aspect.

Good to know!  Makes sense, but after careful thinking on the field...I would hope that either my R or myself would want me to report it as UNR with TGT so that there is no question that we are tacking this on.

A 4/8 @ A48 A32 punts the ball to the B7 where it hits B25 in the leg.  As the ball is rolling on the ground, B25 kicks it at the B4 to prevent Team A from recovering.  The ball bounces into team B's end zone and over the end line.  Ruling?  What are all of Team A's options?

[ttown44]

A 2/12.5 @ A2.5.  7-3-11 penalty enforcement says to enforce at the previous spot

A) B 1/10 @ B6.  Continuity of downs was broken since the ball crossed the neutral zone (5-1-4-b).  Illegal kicking a loose ball is 10 yards from the basic spot which is the spot of the foul (9-4-4 & 10-2-2-d-1-c).

B) Safety.  New impetus was given to the ball when B kicked it (8-7-2-b-1) and was dead behind their goal line.  A will elect to decline the penalty and B will kick off from the B20

What is the answer?

This is actually a play straight from the 2013-2014 Reddings Study Guide.  It is a Safety in both cases due to the status of the ball remaining as a kick, therefore dead once in the endzone.

[Bwest]

Good to know!  Makes sense, but after careful thinking on the field...I would hope that either my R or myself would want me to report it as UNR with TGT so that there is no question that we are tacking this on.

A 4/8 @ A48 A32 punts the ball to the B7 where it hits B25 in the leg.  As the ball is rolling on the ground, B25 kicks it at the B4 to prevent Team A from recovering.  The ball bounces into team B's end zone and over the end line.  Ruling?  What are all of Team A's options?

Result of the play is a safety. We have a foul for illegally kicking the ball. I'm not a huge fan of it in this situation, but this is a PSK foul, meaning if A accepts the penalty B will be 1/10 @ B2. A won't want that, so they will decline the foul in order to take the safety.

[bossman72]

If I understand the IR rules right, if you have an action that qualifies both as DPI and TGT, and the referee only announces TGT, then if the IR reverses the TGT call, you no longer have any foul. If you announce "DPI by TGT", then you still have a foul even if IR reverses the TGT part.

I don't think this is an issue in any crew that works IR games, though.

Ok, maybe I misunderstood your last post.

To my comment "If DPI happened 5 yards down field, you would decline DPI and take TGT", I thought that in your reply that you implied that unless your game had IR, you're not going to get the enforcement right. 

After re-reading your post, it seems as though you meant that you would like the calling official to give you either TGT or DPI, whichever is more advantageous.  I gotcha.  Apologies.

Even in games without IR, I'd still like the calling official to give both.  The DPI at times could be more advantageous than the TGT when you're inside the 30 because of half the distance procedures.

[BlindZebra]

Result of the play is a safety. We have a foul for illegally kicking the ball. I'm not a huge fan of it in this situation, but this is a PSK foul, meaning if A accepts the penalty B will be 1/10 @ B2. A won't want that, so they will decline the foul in order to take the safety.

OK so you got the options correct.  Please tell where the PSK spot is.  I don't know how you get to the B2 because the end of the kick is behind B's goal line but the result is not a touchback so the PSK spot isn't the B20.  I was lost when I read it in the new AR's on Arbiter and I'm still lost.

[Bwest]

OK so you got the options correct.  Please tell where the PSK spot is.  I don't know how you get to the B2 because the end of the kick is behind B's goal line but the result is not a touchback so the PSK spot isn't the B20.  I was lost when I read it in the new AR's on Arbiter and I'm still lost.

I ahven't seen the new play interpretations yet so my answer may conflict until I get a chance to read them...

My interpretation is that the impetus on the kick is irrelevant when determining the PSK spot. 2-25-11-b says:

when the kick ends in Team B’s end zone, the postscrimmage kick spot is Team
B’s 20-yard line.

So to me it doesn't matter how the kick got there, if the kick ends in the end zone and there is a PSK foul, the PSK spot is the 20.

[BlindZebra]

A 2/8 @ A42.  :45 remaining in the game.  During the play, A55 loses his helmet. The ball carrier is tackled inbounds short of the line to gain. Defensive tackle B73 is flagged for being in the neutral zone at the
snap.  Ruling?

[dvasques]

A 2/3 @A-47
A55 is out for a play
B has the option of ZAP-10
Because DOF did not stop the clock but the helmet off did

[jg-me]

Same play but clock reads :08 when play ends?

[BlindZebra]

Same play but clock reads :08 when play ends?

Depends on the score.  If B is winning, I would assume they would want the 10 second runoff; but if B is loosing, I would think they would decline the option.

[bkdow]

Why wouldn't the DOF cause the clock to stop?