How would you handle?

[saofficial(aust)]

We had an interesting end to a game on the weekend which was not handled well by Team A.

Team A were 2 scores up and we had got to the last 25secs of the game. Head coach or QB calls a time out of which any official is reluctant to give. We wanted to be proactive to protect players as these situations can get out of hand in a niggling game that we had.

Team A come out to run a play and Team B defender 'crashes' hard into Team A centre for a false start. Nothing illegal here as centre and guard caused the reaction. After the penalty assessment we set the ball up again and Team B player does it again and pleads for a false start on them again, but it is against him for a flagrant hit on the centre, who was obviously upset at the action (and my belief is he should chastise his coach and QB for even putting him in that situation.) Game is called at 23 secs so we don't get a repeat of the actions.

Team B defender is ejected and Ref and Ump 'chastised' head coach after the game for even calling a play under 25secs with 2 scores up/winning. Coach said he was going to kneel the second time round, which is still no excuse.

In this position with a winning team calling time out how can we refuse this under the rules? It is a ridiculous scenario where we want to prevent this. Probably with this happening from a winning team with 2 scores up would it be inappropriate to call game?

Comments welcome please.

Grant

[blindref757]

In district play, most districts have a positive points tiebreaker system that is either 17 or 21 points.  They would be well within their rights to try and win by 21 in Texas HS ball.  If your situation is different...then the coach probably learned a lesson and the commentary from the R and U was not well advised.

[saofficial(aust)]

As a side point we are a small league where the officials really take the lead and 'teach' the ethics to coaches. It isn't something we can really get away from as they are still learning themselves to be coaches. So if we didn't speak to the coach about the taking of the time out with 25 secs or less who would speak to him? There is no one in our league, other than the president, who has that capacity at the moment.

While we always ask coaches the certification about mandatory equipment the number of clear mouth guards we have found this year has been staggering. We enforce the rules on the field but the coaches are responsible that the players are kitted out correctly as they acknowledge the football code and certification before the game.

Some coaches believe it is 'ok' to teach getting away with things or to wear 'illegal' equipment as long as you don't get caught.

Anyhow just some back ground info.

Grant

[Elvis (NCAA)]

Some coaches believe it is 'ok' to teach getting away with things or to wear 'illegal' equipment as long as you don't get caught.

Some? And you think that's different than anywhere else - at any level? It ain't. They'll all do anything they think they can get away with, if they think they can get a "W."

[sepollit]

Some? And you think that's different than anywhere else - at any level? It ain't. They'll all do anything they think they can get away with, if they think they can get a "W."

As the R in this game I came along to propose this same question only to find Grant beat me to it!

This comment here is part of the point I want to gain some knowledge on.  How do you guys in much bigger environments handle a coach who actively endorses such action (by complaining vigorously when you pick it up)?

Secondly while we use NCAA rules, our players (while ranging in age from 18 to about 40) are no higher than high school calibre with a few noticeable exceptions.  We seem to be constantly put in a position where there is an expectation that we should be "enforcing" sportsmanship, which I struggle with. 

We have support from our league in (just about all) actions we take, which is much nicer than many of the stories I read here, but the expectation is therefore that we somehow are responsible for player and team conduct - not just for enforcing breaches. 

Such is life in the colonies!!!

Simon

[110]

1) There is no rule in any rulebook I have ever read that says it is illegal for a coach to keep playing, to gain points, to win, regardless of score.

2) Nor, is there any provision for the officials teaching sportsmanship to coaches/players. We only enforce the lack thereof, when it violates the rules. See #1 above.

Folks - we're just traffic cops, not an ethics panel.

[sepollit]

1) There is no rule in any rulebook I have ever read that says it is illegal for a coach to keep playing, to gain points, to win, regardless of score.

2) Nor, is there any provision for the officials teaching sportsmanship to coaches/players. We only enforce the lack thereof, when it violates the rules. See #1 above.

Folks - we're just traffic cops, not an ethics panel.

Look I completely agree with you - in an ideal world.  We are just very far from ideal here...  Along with being traffic cops, we are expected to be an ethics panel and many also expect us to be a judiciary, prison operators and parole board into the bargain!

Trying to explain the clear conflicts of interest coming from being expected to wear so many hats is ... trying ... to say the least.

[saofficial(aust)]

The situation is way different down under to the ideal others may have above us.
As my colleague says we are it all rolled into one.
If we dont do it who will? And if no one does then it is just thugs on a field fighting in some sort of controlled manner.

Grant

[Osric Pureheart]

Do you guys get game clocks?  Here in Britain we don't.  What a lot of us do when Team A can run the clock out with knees is (if they want to run the clock out) get them to tell us clearly that they want to end the game, confirm to Team B that they can't stop them running the clock out, and then just stick the ball in the air and go home, which makes sure that a lot of unpleasant stuff never gets the chance to happen.  I don't think you can just start doing this out of the blue, though: it's something that you should talk to coaches in general about before you start.

If the crowd's bigger than three blokes and a dog, sometimes I'll have them do one knee for the spectacle of it, so everyone watching knows that they're kneeling to end the game, but IMO at our level there's absolutely no reason to make them take three knees or three A-gap dives to run 1:30 off the clock with Team B out of timeouts and knowing they're beaten.  The only things that are going to happen are bad things.

Having said that, I can think of a valid reason why a team at our level might want to keep playing even if the game's beyond doubt, and that's to get reps in.  None of them have nearly enough practice time, so the coach may well want to keep playing and get a few more valuable snaps in, especially if he's got backups that he can put in.

[busman]

I am scared to ask.  What is a niggling game?

[lilkidneys]

concur with Livin in the Pit.   out of our lane.    if the losing coach or AD thought it was unsportsmanlike, they can file a complaint with their league or whatever.

if the officials felt that tempers on the field were at the boiling point, nothing prevents them from talking to the players during the timeout prior to the snap to keep things under control on the field. 

[OnlyRefFB]

1) There is no rule in any rulebook I have ever read that says it is illegal for a coach to keep playing, to gain points, to win, regardless of score.

2) Nor, is there any provision for the officials teaching sportsmanship to coaches/players. We only enforce the lack thereof, when it violates the rules. See #1 above.

Folks - we're just traffic cops, not an ethics panel.

Agree with #1.

On the converse side, when I (rarely) tell the offense/defense that they're taking a knee, I always include the words "...but protect yourself"

For #2, I mostly disagree, depending on the potential infraction. It's practicing preventive officiating. Even traffic cops would rather not have to write tickets in the first place. (Their budget minded bosses might have other thoughts)

We are there to "encourage" good sportsmanship, not demand it or chastise coaches who don't exhibit it in all aspects of the game. Of course, if there's a infraction that warrants it, we penalize appropriately.

[110]

We are there to "encourage" good sportsmanship, not demand it or chastise coaches who don't exhibit it in all aspects of the game.

Your view is not that far from mine. Does it suck if a team is running up the score? Probably. Is it really ethical? Probably not. Is it illegal? No.

[sepollit]

Do you guys get game clocks?  Here in Britain we don't.  What a lot of us do when Team A can run the clock out with knees is (if they want to run the clock out) get them to tell us clearly that they want to end the game, confirm to Team B that they can't stop them running the clock out, and then just stick the ball in the air and go home, which makes sure that a lot of unpleasant stuff never gets the chance to happen.  I don't think you can just start doing this out of the blue, though: it's something that you should talk to coaches in general about before you start.

If the crowd's bigger than three blokes and a dog, sometimes I'll have them do one knee for the spectacle of it, so everyone watching knows that they're kneeling to end the game, but IMO at our level there's absolutely no reason to make them take three knees or three A-gap dives to run 1:30 off the clock with Team B out of timeouts and knowing they're beaten.  The only things that are going to happen are bad things.

Having said that, I can think of a valid reason why a team at our level might want to keep playing even if the game's beyond doubt, and that's to get reps in.  None of them have nearly enough practice time, so the coach may well want to keep playing and get a few more valuable snaps in, especially if he's got backups that he can put in.

We do have very large visible game clocks, and the crowd is bigger than 3 blokes (but no dogs allowed!) so we don't have an easy option there.  I'm OK with reps, sure, but when 10 of your 11 offensive starters are still in with 20s to go in the game and you are well in front, it doesn't sound much like reps!

[sepollit]

I am scared to ask.  What is a niggling game?

A game where one team (or sometimes both) is trying to provoke a fight all game.  One of the teams was chop blocking for example (and getting flagged), then chattering about it.  Cleverly and quietly though, so we know something was said, but we don't actually hear what is said.  The idea is to provoke a reaction which will be seen and probably ejected - discipline is not a big feature of our players' game!

Simon

[Atlanta Blue]

discipline is not a big feature of our players' game!

Simon

Having seen Aussie Rules Football, I would have bet on that!

[saofficial(aust)]

I agree with a lot that has been said and while that seems appropriate in the 'ideal' football conference it isn't for here, as it is far different.

In reality someone needs to step up and tell the coaches and players that what they did wasn't right and that is the consequences it led to for the ending of the game. Our administrators do a good job but they miss the details of this happening on the field and some of its importance and urgency.

I would hate to see the game in our state be turned into complete thuggery as it was many a year ago and if that was the case i wouldn't be on the field officiating. Someone needs to stand up to it and at the moment it is the officials.

Thanks to the answers and suggestions. Maybe we can lead the league, coaches and players towards better self control, but without that happening it becomes us to teach or coerce the appropriate standard and duty of care. No one else will.

Grant

[With_Two_Flakes]

I can quite understand the responses that you are getting from our U.S. cousins. But they have had football for over 100 years, plus high school and college authorities who take the sportsmanship aspect very seriously. They maybe don't understand the situation that you find yourselves in down under.

I think I understand where you are coming from. You have adult players playing for club teams where the coach has nothing like the same authority as he would have in a US high school or college. Just the opposite, sometimes if he upsets the players the club fire him and bring in someone they like better.

I appreciate you have visible clocks, but to be honest if it was a case of calling the game a few seconds early or having to break up a fight and eject a bunch of guys, I'd call the game. You have to be able to trust your own judgement and I suspect your Supervisor will back you up. If he doesn't elect one who will.

We regularly used to have games like that when football started here in the UK. Still get the occasional one. Called a game in that situation myself last season. Visiting team were on defense and were 3 scores down with a minute left and no timeouts. Kept wacking someone late every play to get some payback. Told the U to gimme the ball, held it up and blew my whistle.

[sepollit]

I can quite understand the responses that you are getting from our U.S. cousins. But they have had football for over 100 years, plus high school and college authorities who take the sportsmanship aspect very seriously. They maybe don't understand the situation that you find yourselves in down under.

I think I understand where you are coming from. You have adult players playing for club teams where the coach has nothing like the same authority as he would have in a US high school or college. Just the opposite, sometimes if he upsets the players the club fire him and bring in someone they like better.

Very similar here, yes.  The winning programs tend to keep coaches long term, the ones on the cusp seem to swap them very frequently.

I appreciate you have visible clocks, but to be honest if it was a case of calling the game a few seconds early or having to break up a fight and eject a bunch of guys, I'd call the game. You have to be able to trust your own judgement and I suspect your Supervisor will back you up. If he doesn't elect one who will.

We don't really have a supervisor as such, more of a triumvirate of which Grant and I are two!  We concurred with our decision to call the game early - surprising, no?

Thanks all for the input - this site is a huge resource for us down under.  While there are plenty of "formal" resources available, something that gives us some insight into the informal approaches and mindsets of you guys is a treasure.

Cheers,

Simon

[With_Two_Flakes]

Heh, heh. Say Hi to Paul Mercer for me.........

Pity none of you guys could come over to the UK in the Summer to work the Tri-Nations with us, but "down under" did have some representatrion as Steve Bowness from New Zealand was among the officials as he happened to be in the UK at the time. It was an interesting tourney. I assessed the GB-Australia crew and was White Hat on the Sweden - Australia game.

[saofficial(aust)]

Ahh aint life grand, had it happen again just over 12 months apart. Same team as well.

[Etref]

If your situation is different...then the coach probably learned a lesson and the commentary from the R and U was not well advised.

Evidently the coach did not learn his lesson.   

[AlUpstateNY]

1) There is no rule in any rulebook I have ever read that says it is illegal for a coach to keep playing, to gain points, to win, regardless of score.

2) Nor, is there any provision for the officials teaching sportsmanship to coaches/players. We only enforce the lack thereof, when it violates the rules. See #1 above.

Folks - we're just traffic cops, not an ethics panel.

I hope you’ll allow a dissenting opinion.  Although I agree officials are not intended to be an ethics panel, we are expected to “manage” the conduct of a game.  Long ago I learned the first, overarching, rule of officiating is to “try and insure that one team is not allowed to gain an unfair advantage over the other team”.

You won’t find any written detailed description of exactly what that means; the understanding has to be developed through your own experiences and standards, and is generally and (deliberately) vaguely outlined within the rules of the level you’re working.

Concerning “Sportsmanship”, you’re correct our role is NOT that of a teacher, it is the role of an ENFORCER and it is our responsibility and function to DEMAND that players and coaches behave appropriately while participating in a game that we are managing. We are placed on the field to insure proper sportsmanship is followed by ALL who enjoy the privilege of participation.  

Reality requires we consider the emotional and adrenalin aspects of participation and exercise patience and poise in maintaining an appropriate atmosphere.  Operating under NFHS rule I have a distinct advantage in that I have the unilateral authority to remove (banish) a player or coach should I (alone) decide it necessary, and consider use of this authority in only the most egregious circumstances.  Although, this is a rare circumstance that is only used in the most extreme instances, the simple existence of this capability, although unspoken, helps temper most situations.

Perhaps most important is a clear understanding and perception, also totally never spoken, that the officials working the game understand this authority and have the fortitude to exercise it should it become necessary.  Officials are not on the field to give any coach a hard time or be disrespectful. Officials, alone, decide how much of a “hard time” and/or disrespect they are willing to tolerate as side effects of frustration and disappointment.  

If you’re receiving too much of either, you are the only one capable of correcting it.  

[saofficial(aust)]

Yes I agree 100% of how you put that but it can only operate 99.9999999% of the time. It is the 1% that throw the spanner in the works and can turn things ugly and in our small league can end up wearing more than one hat.
While last weekend was very close to the original posting of an event we still had the taking a knee dilemma and defence taking a shot at offence and players arguing about the sportsmanship of it all. Sure play football til the end and be prepared for fumble and being hit but I get torn from telling Def they are taking a knee so no cheap shots to yes take a knee but it is still a full on play so that Def can cause a fumble.
I have read back on some posts on this and hope to clear my mind so that we don't have this style of cheap shot in future and we can develop a better standard consistent with playing football and protecting players from injury in the last moments of a game so that cheap shots are minimised.

Grant

[Aussie-Zebra]

Heh, heh. Say Hi to Paul Mercer for me.........

pity "down under" did have some representation as Steve Bowness from New Zealand was among the officials as he happened to be in the UK at the time.

Say hello yourself - he comes in here - but he's very shy and doesn't speak.

We know Stephen very well - he came over for the Senior Nationals Tournament in March as well as the esteemed Bill LeMonnier Esq for our Officials clinic.