Horse Collar on Non-Runner

[TXMike]

We have had some discussions about horse collars on those who do not actually have the ball.  Here is a clip from this weekend.

[yt=425,350]QEmWP43ByH8[/yt]

[scottv]

From what I understand the HC was made a rule for safety reasons, I'd think we'd want non-runners to be safe as well-right?

What if an O-lineman pulls somebody down with a HC, holding?

Clearly a no call with the rule as written.

[James]

Horse collar specifically says Ball Carrier - not Runner, so no to this foul, but PF or holding would still be there.

[Chester]

Roughing the Passer. 

[TxSkyBolt]

Roughing the Passer. 

Don't think you could have RTP in this instance.  Contact was just a fraction of a second after the ball was released.

Brad

[Chester]

Disagree.  This can be roughing the passer. 

It's either RPS or Personal Foul, Unnecessary Roughness.  Either way, I believe, it's a foul.

[NVFOA_Ump]

Horse collar specifically says Ball Carrier - not Runner, so no to this foul, but PF or holding would still be there.

Not sure that I'd let him off that easily.  He's got the collar before the ball is gone and the play clearly results in a "horse collar" tackle.  IMO a HC call can be supported here.

[Reff54]

In slow motion....#8  has the grasp at the top of his jersey...the collar....before the QB let's go of the ball  on the pass....so technically...I guess the QB could have been considered a ball carrier when the "horse collar"  grasp was initiated...he throws the ball as #8 is starting the momentum of taking the qb down to the turn via a "horse collar" grasp...  the fact that the QB doesn't have the ball at the time he hits the turf.......   I guess its a continous grasp and tackle before the qb passes....  it's one of those really gray areas....  he was a ball carrier at the time the HC grasp was made...just not when he hit the turf...

[ref6983]

Don't be technical when it comes to safety. This would have been an obvious foul if the QB had not released the ball. Just because he did does not make it any less dangerous.

If you think he still had the ball when it started, just make it a horse-collar tackle, just as you would do if he fumbled as he was being pulled down. If the ball is gone, make it RPS ("...throwing the passer to the ground after the ball is gone.")  A supervisor would be foolish not to support it.

[TxSkyBolt]

Different situation.  QB is grasped by the inside back of the collar and as he's being immediatly pulled down, he loses the ball.  Technically he's not a ball carrier when he is down...I think most officials would call that a horse collar...how is this different?

best regards,

Brad

[110]

Flag. Instant, no question.

Canadian rules are simple: force around the pads, from the rear, that changes the direction of an opponent: HC. DOesn't have to have the pigskin. Might be worth looking at adopting?

[Mike L]

I made this call in a HS game this year because NFHS fixed this problem with the HC call by rewording it with an intent to make it applicable to runners OOB or after scoring a TD but can also apply to anyone who is no longer a runner because the ball is out of possession when brought down. Unfortunately they're still stuck with "subsequently" rather than "immediately.

[cperezprg]

No player shall initiate contact and target a defenseless opponent
above the shoulders. When in question, it is a foul. (Refer to Points of
Emphasis for a description of “Defenseless Player.”)

The following are situations in which defenseless players are susceptible to
serious injury:

• The passer who is in the act of throwing the ball, or who has not had a
reasonable length of time to participate in the play again after releasing the
ball;


 

[Aussie-Zebra]

I thought the same thing as you Carlos - its in the points of emphasis

The NCAA Football Rules Committee has extraordinary pride in the Football
Code, which was introduced in 1916 and has been updated several times. These
guidelines form a harmony of agreement among coaches, players, game officials
and administrators that places each contest in an environment of fairness and
sportsmanship. It is noted that the Code emphasizes the following unethical
practices: “Using the helmet as a weapon. The helmet is for protection of the
player...” and “players and coaches should emphasize the elimination of targeting
and initiating contact against a defenseless opponent and/or with the crown of the
helmet.” Every participant in the collegiate football scene shares a responsibility
for ethical conduct that enhances the future of this American tradition.

PROTECTION OF DEFENSELESS PLAYERS—In 2008, the committee
introduced a separate rule prohibiting initiating contact with and targeting a
defenseless opponent (Rule 9-1-3).
The following are situations in which defenseless players are susceptible to
serious injury:
• The quarterback moving down the line of scrimmage who has handed or
pitched the ball to a teammate, and then makes no attempt to participate
further in the play;
• The kicker who is in the act of kicking the ball, or who has not had a
reasonable length of time to regain his balance after the kick;
• The passer who is in the act of throwing the ball, or who has not had a
reasonable length of time to participate in the play again after releasing the ball;
• The pass receiver whose concentration is on the ball;
• The pass receiver who has clearly relaxed when the pass is no longer catchable;
• The kick receiver whose attention is on the downward flight of the ball;
• The kick receiver who has just touched the ball;
• The player who has relaxed once the ball has become dead; and
• The player who is obviously out of the play.

These players are protected by rules that have been in place for many years. It
is of the utmost importance that participants, coaches and game officials carefully
and diligently observe safety rules.
Intentional helmet-to-helmet contact is never legal, nor is any other blow
directed toward an opponent’s head. Flagrant offenders shall be disqualified.

I looked at this in regards to roughing the passer, ect but I would say it refers to targeting with the helmet - otherwise you could say that by this a passer in the act of throwing a ball cannot be touched - when we know he can be tackled and result in a sack and maybe incomplete pass or fumble. Also it is not a HCT if the passer is in the tackle box and the POE above makes no disclaimer in that regard.

However the and/or could change the context.

[Curious]

I made this call in a HS game this year because NFHS fixed this problem with the HC call by rewording it with an intent to make it applicable to runners OOB or after scoring a TD but can also apply to anyone who is no longer a runner because the ball is out of possession when brought down. Unfortunately they're still stuck with "subsequently" rather than "immediately.

Mike, I assume your call based on the runner being pulled down backward or from the side?  If that was your call, I could accept an HCT call - because of the 2010 rule change.  The play in the OP, IMO, is different; as it looks like he falls forward. So, at least from the HS level, I wouldn't have an HCT - as CB 9.4.3L (2009 CB) demands that the runner be pulled down "abruptly backwards" or "from the side".

[cperezprg]

The passer can be tackled but only below shoulders, not above

[Mike L]

Mike, I assume your call based on the runner being pulled down backward or from the side?  If that was your call, I could accept an HCT call - because of the 2010 rule change.  The play in the OP, IMO, is different; as it looks like he falls forward. So, at least from the HS level, I wouldn't have an HCT - as CB 9.4.3L (2009 CB) demands that the runner be pulled down "abruptly backwards" or "from the side".

In my play the QB was grabbed in classic HC fashion as he was releasing the ball & was then pulled straight back and down after the release. The only argument I got from the B team was they were not happy about previous spot enforcement. (NFHS rules)
From the quick look we get here, I think he's pulled sideways and just twists as he goes down to kinda "land" forward". It's darn hard to pull someone forward when you grab him from behind.

[fbrefga]

The passer can be tackled but only below shoulders, not above

HCT does not apply to a ball carrier or potential passer who is inside the tackle box. 9-1-2-p

[cperezprg]

I'm not talking about a Horse collar foul, but Rule 9-1-3-b. That's foul inside or outside the tackle box