UNS Rule affects Mass. HS Championship Game

[NVFOA_Ump]

So today we apparently get the rest of the story - from an attendee at the game.  As noted earlier, the hand goes up around the 24-25 yard line.  But that's not all - it's followed by the altered stride high step at the 9-10 yard line.  The actual flag was at the 9 yard line explaining the next snap going off from the 24 yard line.  Also, during each pre-game conference, the R+U gave the coaching staffs the reminder that there would be no unsportsmanlike actions tolerated from either team, and that any such actions prior to a score are treated as a live ball fouls this year.

So after all, there was more than just a hand in the air, and the call was justified.

[chymechowder]

Here are the ones I can remember from memory:

Altered stride
Hand gesture directed at opponent
Diving with no threat
Turning head to yell at opponent
Any gesture that draws attention to self

list is below...if it's a finger or fist raised in celebration, then flagging it isn't just "over-officiating," imo.  it's worse than that.  it's making up your own rules. where's the rule support for a flag?  I've heard some say that fits under "d" below, because it's "[focusing] attention upon [oneself]".   but using that category ignores the wording of the rule.  we don't have the leeway to flag any act that we deem as attention drawing.  it first has to be either delayed, excessive, prolonged or choreographed.  and i'm sorry, but I dont see how anyone can sanely characterize a fist in the air 3 seconds before a score as any of those 4 things.

Specifically prohibited acts and conduct include:
1. No player, substitute, coach or other person subject to the rules shall
use abusive, threatening or obscene language or gestures, or engage in
such acts that provoke ill will or are demeaning to an opponent, to game
officials or to the image of the game, including but not limited to:
(a) Pointing the finger(s), hand(s), arm(s) or ball at an opponent, or
imitating the slashing of the throat.
(b) Taunting, baiting or ridiculing an opponent verbally.
(c) Inciting an opponent or spectators in any other way, such as
simulating the firing of a weapon or placing a hand by the ear to
request recognition.
(d) Any delayed, excessive, prolonged or choreographed act by which
a player (or players) attempts to focus attention upon himself (or
themselves).
(e) An unopposed ball carrier obviously altering stride as he approaches
the opponent’s goal line or diving into the end zone.
(f) Removal of a player’s helmet before he is in the team area
(Exceptions: Team, media or injury timeouts; equipment adjustment;
through play; between periods; and during a measurement for a first
down).
(g) Punching one’s own chest or crossing one’s arms in front of the chest
while standing over a prone player.
(h) Going into the stands to interact with spectators, or bowing at the
waist after a good play.

[TXMike]

Never ceases to amaze me at how we seemed to be able to score 30 - 50 points a game when I was in HS 35 years ago and I don't recall one time that a guy felt the need to do something like this goose stepping, pointing, etc.  I wonder how many points we might have been able to score had we included those type activities?

[chymechowder]

So today we apparently get the rest of the story - from an attendee at the game.  As noted earlier, the hand goes up around the 24-25 yard line.  But that's not all - it's followed by the altered stride high step at the 9-10 yard line.  The actual flag was at the 9 yard line explaining the next snap going off from the 24 yard line.  Also, during each pre-game conference, the R+U gave the coaching staffs the reminder that there would be no unsportsmanlike actions tolerated from either team, and that any such actions prior to a score are treated as a live ball fouls this year.

So after all, there was more than just a hand in the air, and the call was justified.

ok good!  if he high stepped, he violated a specific rule. some may still wonder whether the flag should be thrown, but I at least get to take back my provisional anger.  if he high stepped, the flag is definitely justifiable.

[mccormicw]

I would pay money to see TXMike goose step.

[TXMike]

list is below...if it's a finger or fist raised in celebration, then flagging it isn't just "over-officiating," imo.  it's worse than that.  it's making up your own rules. where's the rule support for a flag? 

2 things:
1 - The rule says "included but not limited to", and
2 - RR's guidance bulletin said "if it feels wrong, flag it"

These 2 things make the rule open to essentially whatever interpretation someone wants to make

[TXMike]

I would pay money to see TXMike goose step.

That will be $1.50 please...

[Atlanta Blue]

That will be $1.50 please...

Not til we get confirmation which one is you!

[TXMike]

I am from Texas.  Even a coach should be able to figure it out from that fact.   

[chymechowder]

2 things:
1 - The rule says "included but not limited to", and
2 - RR's guidance bulletin said "if it feels wrong, flag it"

These 2 things make the rule open to essentially whatever interpretation someone wants to make

Agree on both.  But this isn't the model UN or a phil donahue show where we need to validate everyone's feelings.  Just because it's open to interpretation, that doesn't mean that nobody can make a BAD interpretation, does it? 

How bout we flag kickers kickers who put their fists in the air after they boot a ball and they know it's going to be a good FG?  actually, , where would we spot the ball on such a flag?  would we have to estimate the yardline above which the ball was soaring the moment the kicker fistpumped? 

[clearwall]

I thought this was you, Mike?

[TXMike]

Agree on both.  But this isn't the model UN or a phil donahue show where we need to validate everyone's feelings.  Just because it's open to interpretation, that doesn't mean that nobody can make a BAD interpretation, does it? 

I think we can honestly say that if it was not something that 45[ drunks in a bar would say was unsportsmanlike conduct then it probably should not have  been flagged.     http://collegefootball.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=1235794

[Merlin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bP_mCEP-1z0

[golfingref]

After watching the video, I don't see justification for the call.

[InsideTheStripes]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bP_mCEP-1z0

Ugh.  I'm not even sure what to say... I can't support that call in any way.

[chymechowder]

aaand I'm right back to being HACKED off again, haha.

no stride altering at all. no pointing at an opponent. no basis for the flag.

So what do we do when 45 drunks in a bar all have no foul but the BJ throws a flag?

also, the officials assignor supports the call.

http://bostonherald.com/sports/high_school/football/view.bg?articleid=1386049

Joe Cacciatore, the assigner for officials in the Catholic Conference and Greater Boston League sympathized with Cathedral, but was quick to defend his comrades in their handling of the situation.

“It’s tough, but the official absolutely made the right call according to the letter of the law,” Cacciatore said. “It says it right there in the rules that any attempt to draw attention to yourself, whether it is pointing the finger, raising a fist or anything like that, is a penalty.

“We’ve been instructed to call it when it happens, it’s zero tolerance now. I served as a liaison for the two semifinal games at Andover Tuesday night, and that was one of the first thing we talked about with the coaches and captains.”

it's tough when the "attention drawing" myth rears its misinformed head in the 4th quarter of a state final.

[TXMike]

Sounds like maybe they talked about it so much they may have been predisposed to pull the trigger?

We might get 20 of the 50 drunks in the bar to flag but we'd have a hard time getting to 45.

[Welpe]

Maybe live ball UNS is too damaging to be used at the high school level. Just an idle thought.

[TxSkyBolt]

Maybe live ball UNS is too damaging to be used at the high school level. Just an idle thought.

No unfortunately, at the HS level, there are just WAY too many folks who don't get it. I'd be that most of these wouldn't even have been called last year.

[zebra99]

aaand I'm right back to being HACKED off again, haha.

no stride altering at all. no pointing at an opponent. no basis for the flag.

So what do we do when 45 drunks in a bar all have no foul but the BJ throws a flag?

also, the officials assignor supports the call.

http://bostonherald.com/sports/high_school/football/view.bg?articleid=1386049

Joe Cacciatore, the assigner for officials in the Catholic Conference and Greater Boston League sympathized with Cathedral, but was quick to defend his comrades in their handling of the situation.

“It’s tough, but the official absolutely made the right call according to the letter of the law,” Cacciatore said. “It says it right there in the rules that any attempt to draw attention to yourself, whether it is pointing the finger, raising a fist or anything like that, is a penalty.

“We’ve been instructed to call it when it happens, it’s zero tolerance now. I served as a liaison for the two semifinal games at Andover Tuesday night, and that was one of the first thing we talked about with the coaches and captains.”

it's tough when the "attention drawing" myth rears its misinformed head in the 4th quarter of a state final.

well, the apparently crew made the right call because they were so instructed.  Your angst should be directed to the supervisor and others who gave them that instruction.

That's my major complaint regarding some posters on this board who take strong positions against those in the pits making the calls they are instructed to make.

[Welpe]

No unfortunately, at the HS level, there are just WAY too many folks who don't get it. I'd be that most of these wouldn't even have been called last year.

That's my point.

[NVFOA_Ump]

Looks like part of the information I rec'd was a bit of fiction.  I'll go back to my original comment in that a raised hand alone is not a foul the way the rule is currently written.  I guess that a picture, in this case a video, really is worth a thousand words.

[Rulesman]

Maybe live ball UNS is too damaging to be used at the high school level. Just an idle thought.

Maybe Mass. should be using Federation rules. Then we wouldn't be having this conversation.

[ABoselli]

I thought this was you, Mike?

I can just hear TXMike - "The stars at night are big and bright....."

[TampaSteve]

love the commentary.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bP_mCEP-1z0