Random Questions

[Ironmanerik]

How would that be an illegal shift? I would only view that scenario as an illegal motion if that WR was not at least 5 yards behind the LOS at the snap. 7-2-7

Also potential for illegal formation if there aren't at least 7 on LOS at the snap.

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The action of the player would determine the difference to me.  It would all depend on if an advantage occurred.  I would try my best to make it legal but I think it falls under the "you know it when you see it". 


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[OHref71]

How would that be an illegal shift? I would only view that scenario as an illegal motion if that WR was not at least 5 yards behind the LOS at the snap. 7-2-7

Also potential for illegal formation if there aren't at least 7 on LOS at the snap.

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Because after a shift all 11 players must be set for 1 second he was not therefore illegal shift.

[OHref71]

How would that be an illegal shift? I would only view that scenario as an illegal motion if that WR was not at least 5 yards behind the LOS at the snap. 7-2-7

Also potential for illegal formation if there aren't at least 7 on LOS at the snap.

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2-39 defines the action of the wide receiver as a shift then 7-3-6 says that all 11 players must be set for 1 second after a shift.  If all 11 are not set for 1 second it is an illegal shift.

[LAZebra]

The rule of thumb, philosophy if you will, I was taught many years ago as a young wing official, if a player gets completely set (motionless) he is set for a second.

[Ironmanerik]

2-39 defines the action of the wide receiver as a shift then 7-3-6 says that all 11 players must be set for 1 second after a shift.  If all 11 are not set for 1 second it is an illegal shift.

👍🏻


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[ALStripes17]

2-39 defines the action of the wide receiver as a shift then 7-3-6 says that all 11 players must be set for 1 second after a shift.  If all 11 are not set for 1 second it is an illegal shift.

But we have an exception under 7-2-7  that allows one player to be in motion at the snap. As long as the guidelines of that rule are followed, an illegal shift is a moot point.

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[Suudy]

For my part, calling an illegal shift when a back in motion stops for less than 1us prior to the snap is about as ticky-tacky as it gets.  What's the advantage gained?  Sure, lots of the motion/shift fouls are ticky-tacky to some degree, but this one is the farthest down on any list for me.  Even if I think Joe Roadrunner is  a jerk and I've been looking for some way to ding him all game, I wouldn't call this.

On the other hand, I get it.  I've always assumed the reason I've seen so many coaches have motion men run in place instead of stop was to avoid this foul.  So a extremely pedantic view of the rules perhaps warrants a flag here.

The only related scenario I can think of would be similar is something like A84 going in motion.  One he comes across, he stops.  Immediately when A84 stops, prior to 1s, A32 goes in motion.  I see this as a shift, and some advantage gained.  I'd probably flag this case.

[ALStripes17]

The only related scenario I can think of would be similar is something like A84 going in motion.  One he comes across, he stops.  Immediately when A84 stops, prior to 1s, A32 goes in motion.  I see this as a shift, and some advantage gained.  I'd probably flag this case.

Not similar to what the discussion has evolved to, but you would be correct in flagging that.

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[walkintall]

If I flagged what is being discussed as illegal shift, I can't imagine how a long a game would be. To me, it would be an advantage for the defense, not the offense, if the "shifter" stopped basically at the snap.

[OHref71]

But we have an exception under 7-2-7  that allows one player to be in motion at the snap. As long as the guidelines of that rule are followed, an illegal shift is a moot point.

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Yes 1 player in motion but if he stops he is no longer in motion and therefore set.  He must then be set for 1 second before the snap.  I would probably say he was still in motion or was set for a Second but by rule stopping and not being set for 1 second is a penalty for illegal shift.

[ALStripes17]

Yes 1 player in motion but if he stops he is no longer in motion and therefore set.  He must then be set for 1 second before the snap.  I would probably say he was still in motion or was set for a Second but by rule stopping and not being set for 1 second is a penalty for illegal shift.

Haha. This justification is impractical...

In motion: legal

Between 0 and 1000 milliseconds after stopping: flag

1000 milliseconds or later after being stopped: legal

Ridiculous...

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[Kalle]

Out of pure curiosity, why is the NFHS rule worded so that one player may shift? In NCAA a shift requires two players moving, and the only real difference I can think of is that in NCAA you may execute a change of positions and avoid the one second requirement if only one player moves at a time after the whole team has set for one second. Is this really something that NFHS considers "bad" and wants to prevent?

[OHref71]

Haha. This justification is impractical...

In motion: legal

Between 0 and 1000 milliseconds after stopping: flag

1000 milliseconds or later after being stopped: legal

Ridiculous...

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Like it or not it is the rule,.

[VALJ]

By rule, I agree that if he stops, he has to be set for a full second, and on a test, I'm marking it as a foul.  2-39 includes the verbiage "...move to a new set position before the ensuing snap." (emphasis mine)  By strict interpretation of that and 7-2-6 and the verbiage "after... a shift all 11 players of A shall come to an absolute stop and shall remain stationary simultaneously without movement...", we have an illegal shift if he has stopped, and has not been stopped for a full second when the snap goes off.

In practice, unless there's an advantage gained, that's a "talk to" for me, for both the player who's moving, and the A coach.

[OHref71]

By rule, I agree that if he stops, he has to be set for a full second, and on a test, I'm marking it as a foul.  2-39 includes the verbiage "...move to a new set position before the ensuing snap." (emphasis mine)  By strict interpretation of that and 7-2-6 and the verbiage "after... a shift all 11 players of A shall come to an absolute stop and shall remain stationary simultaneously without movement...", we have an illegal shift if he has stopped, and has not been stopped for a full second when the snap goes off.

In practice, unless there's an advantage gained, that's a "talk to" for me, for both the player who's moving, and the A coach.

This I completely agree with.  I was just reading that some thought it was not a foul and it could get them some heat if they ever told a coach that wasn't a foul on the rare occasion the coach actually knew the rules.

[VALJ]

I should also add that I have a hard time seeing how any advantage would be gained by the player stopping, rather than continuing to be in motion at the snap, and have a hard time imagining a situation where I'd actually flag one guy in motion who stopped a half second before the snap.

Though I suppose somehow, there's a situation...

[ALStripes17]

I should also add that I have a hard time seeing how any advantage would be gained by the player stopping, rather than continuing to be in motion at the snap, and have a hard time imagining a situation where I'd actually flag one guy in motion who stopped a half second before the snap.

Though I suppose somehow, there's a situation...

And the fact that anyone could legitimately judge that a player originally and legally in motion was COMPLETELY STOPPED for between 0 and 1 second.

As I said, impractical.

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[ajsowada]

And the fact that anyone could legitimately judge that a player originally and legally in motion was COMPLETELY STOPPED for between 0 and 1 second.

As I said, impractical.

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Agreed.  My point completely. 

[Ralph Damren]

Welcome, coach, to the forum . We enjoy input from a coach's perspective.

#1 : Confusing protocol by the officials ...they may have seen too many NCAA /NFL games "end" with the clock still ticking and handshakes beginning , and felt that it is premature.

#2 : Case 9.10.1B states, "Football has been and always will be a game of deception and trickery involving multiple shifts, unusual formations and creative plays. However, ACTIONS or VERBAGE designed to confuse the defense into believing there is a problem and a snap isn't imminent is beyond the scope of sportsmanship and is illegal." Some could consider that having your QB running toward your sideline as the ball is snapped, is an attempt to confuse the defense that he's coming toward you to clarify the play. Your best test is to run it by the officiating crew during your pregame meeting with them when asked if you have any unusual/trick plays. 

#3 : Simplistically speaking, a false start is when a player jumps the snap with a lunge, step, twitch, whatever. Once a player has false started, he can't get out of it and the play is shut down with a dead ball foul. Conversely, an illegal shift is when two or more players are in motion AT the snap (often they are on 2 different pages in the play book ). A potentially illegal shift can be corrected by either all players becoming set for a second before the snap or a time out being called. Thus it doesn't become a foul until the ball is snapped.

Hope this helps.

[Kalle]

Conversely, an illegal shift is when two or more players are in motion AT the snap (often they are on 2 different pages in the play book ).

So, even though the NFHS rule book defines the shift to be one or more players moving, it really is the same as in NCAA where you need two? This play would be legal?

1/10 from A-30. Team A players take their positions and are set for one second. Wide receiver A88, who is off the line, moves from wide left to a stance in the backfield next to the left tackle A60. Immediately after A88 stops, WR A92, who is off the line, starts motion from wide right towards the center of the field. The ball is snapped when A92 is still in motion parallel to the LOS just behind the right tackle A52.

[Ralph Damren]

So, even though the NFHS rule book defines the shift to be one or more players moving, it really is the same as in NCAA where you need two? This play would be legal?

1/10 from A-30. Team A players take their positions and are set for one second. Wide receiver A88, who is off the line, moves from wide left to a stance in the backfield next to the left tackle A60. Immediately after A88 stops, WR A92, who is off the line, starts motion from wide right towards the center of the field. The ball is snapped when A92 is still in motion parallel to the LOS just behind the right tackle A52.

Once A88 stops, WR A92 would need to remain set for one second before his motion. If he didn't stop and reset before the snap or if no timeout is called, we would have an illegal shift. Trying to keep it simple and didn't explain it well.

[Kalle]

Once A88 stops, WR A92 would need to remain set for one second before his motion. If he didn't stop and reset before the snap or if no timeout is called, we would have an illegal shift. Trying to keep it simple and didn't explain it well.

Yeah, I assumed that One more question, do you know the rationale for this particular rule difference compared to NCAA?

[Ralph Damren]

Yeah, I assumed that One more question, do you know the rationale for this particular rule difference compared to NCAA?

Unsure how the NCAA rule reads.

[Kalle]

Unsure how the NCAA rule reads.

In NCAA the action I described is legal, as in NCAA it requires two players to be moving at the same time for the action to be considered a shift and not motion.

"A shift is a simultaneous change of position or stance by two or more offensive players after the ball is ready for play before the snap for a scrimmage down."

[Ralph Damren]

In NCAA the action I described is legal, as in NCAA it requires two players to be moving at the same time for the action to be considered a shift and not motion.

"A shift is a simultaneous change of position or stance by two or more offensive players after the ball is ready for play before the snap for a scrimmage down."

In parsing the different codes, it would appear NFHS requires a one second pause (7-2-6) where NCAA does not. Do we count "o-n-e  t-h-o-u-s-a-n-d  o-n-e"  to determine that?? Probably not, but watch to insure one player is set BEFORE another player goes in motion. Sorta' like a pitcher coming to a complete stop when working from the stretch in another sport.....

BY THE WAY, GO CUBBIES!!!